($22) I feel I made the right play

[ChrisV]

Hero raises [125].
MrHappy99 folds.
moneyups calls [125].
hitnjax folds.
HOT48 folds.
bfahey calls [80].
*** Dealing Turn [ 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ] (pot: 465)

Your move...

This is one of a range of possible scenarios. I tried to be fair by coming up with a pretty unremarkable one. Turns of A, K, 6, 4, or any diamond are no picnic either.

You don't fold the hand because you think the button is necessarily beating you. You fold because it's impossible to play weak hands out of position against 5 loose players.

[Amy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold? Are you guys kidding me? You have top friggin pair with 5 other people in the pot . It's checked to the last player to act and he bets half the pot, OMG he must have slowplayed pocket queens and flopped a set! Seriously, that bet could mean a flush draw, ace high, a small pair, all of which I'm ahead of at this point but it's more likely that my TPcrappyK is behind to at least one person, and even if I'm not behind, I'm not ahead by much . It's a T135 pot, I have top pair, there's no reason to believe my hand isn't good here, I want that pot. I'm checkraising to about 125 here, and folding to a reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand, what makes you think TP isn't good here? Yes, there are five others in the pot, but no one has shown any real strength, and it makes no sense for me to not take a stab at this pot. If I get raised, or pick up a bunch of callers, I can shut down. I think you are grossly underestimating how profitable this situation is.

[Hendricks433]

I dont liek the check raise out of position with a vulnerable hand like this. I think its lead out on the flop or check call. or check fold.

[kyro]

Tossing in chips when you have very little equity is spewing. You are overestimating how often you're ahead here.

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand, what makes you think TP isn't good here?

[/ QUOTE ]

NLHE and especially SNGs aren't all about whether a hand is probably good or not. Out of position, you also require the ability to play the hand strongly.

I think there's a pretty good chance - perhaps better than even - that your hand is currently best. I also think the correct action is to fold. Your understanding of deep stack NL is incomplete if you think these ideas are contradictory.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, there are five others in the pot, but no one has shown any real strength, and it makes no sense for me to not take a stab at this pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not going to just be a stab, though, is it? Suppose you check raise to 125 and only the button calls. The turn is the 8 of clubs. There's no reason to change your original assessment, so you bet 250 into the pot of 340. Without checking the original post, your stack is now something like 450. Suppose the river is an ace, or pairs the 6, or a diamond, or a number of other cards. You check and he moves in. Calling?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold? Are you guys kidding me? You have top friggin pair with 5 other people in the pot . It's checked to the last player to act and he bets half the pot, OMG he must have slowplayed pocket queens and flopped a set! Seriously, that bet could mean a flush draw, ace high, a small pair, all of which I'm ahead of at this point but it's more likely that my TPcrappyK is behind to at least one person, and even if I'm not behind, I'm not ahead by much . It's a T135 pot, I have top pair, there's no reason to believe my hand isn't good here, I want that pot. I'm checkraising to about 125 here, and folding to a reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand, what makes you think TP isn't good here? Yes, there are five others in the pot, but no one has shown any real strength, and it makes no sense for me to not take a stab at this pot. If I get raised, or pick up a bunch of callers, I can shut down. I think you are grossly underestimating how profitable this situation is.

[/ QUOTE ]

even if you are ahead here Amy, the times you are ahead (which might not be much here) you will only stand to win a little, but when you lose/or are already behind, you will lose much more. Learning to get away in these situations is KEY to becoming even a breakeven player in SNGs...sorry to be blunt but thats how I see it.

well, it appears I am an idiot....

#Game No : 2941057019
***** Hand History for Game 2941057019 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:16929862 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Thursday, October 27, 21:13:03 EDT 2005
Table Table 67725 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: AllThatIsZen ( $665 )
Seat 2: thats_hot01 ( $770 )
Seat 3: warsawatc ( $770 )
<font color="red"> Seat 4: bfahey ( $950 ) </font>
Seat 7: moneyups ( $265 )
Seat 8: hitnjax ( $1410 )
Seat 9: HOT48 ( $800 )
Seat 10: skairzo ( $800 )
<font color="blue"> Seat 5: castanza_g ( $785 ) </font>
Seat 6: MrHappy99 ( $785 )
Trny:16929862 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to castanza_g [ T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ]
moneyups calls [15].
hitnjax calls [15].
HOT48 calls [15].
skairzo folds.
AllThatIsZen folds.
thats_hot01 folds.
warsawatc folds.
<font color="red"> bfahey calls [15]. </font>
<font color="blue"> castanza_g calls [5]. </font>
MrHappy99 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ] POT=90
<font color="blue"> castanza_g checks. </font>
MrHappy99 checks.
moneyups checks.
hitnjax checks.
HOT48 checks.
<font color="red"> bfahey bets [45]. </font>
<font color="blue"> castanza_g raises [150]. </font>
MrHappy99 folds.
moneyups folds.
hitnjax folds.
HOT48 folds.
<font color="red"> bfahey calls [105]. </font>
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ] POT=390
<font color="blue"> castanza_g... </font>

I was going to defend myself with all the same points that AMY made, but it seems those are not correct.

[mlagoo]

what happened is pretty much exactly why I wouldn't C/R here.

at this point, i have to lead the turn again unless i'm just totally giving up on the hand. if i get raised here, im folding in a flash, if i get called, i'm check-folding the river. it just sucks.

[DDH]

I would have called pre-flop, the only difference I have ont he flop, is I would have bet out. There's what? 90 in the pot? I would have put out a bet of about 60-80, especially first to act, and then see how people react to the bet to get a feel of where my hand is. Do they call, do I get raised? I do think there is a pretty good chance that you're ahead here, but I would bet out for information and to give people a chance to fold, and maybe make a hand like QJ question their own kicker.

[ChrisV]

This is a common scenario. If you bet here, you might as well not even have top pair because you are reduced to praying your opponent folds. If he calls, you're checking the river and folding if he bets, which he often will with a busted hand. If he raises, you're folding right now.

I prefer checking in this situation because it allows me to get some desperately-needed information out of my opponent. Allowing a free card here is pretty ugly, but betting simply delays till the river having to admit that I don't have a good enough hand to commit. The answer is to admit that straight away and fold the flop.