AK call down with turned tptk?

[Derek132260]

Raising gives you the very real possibility of a free turn and river, and it also lets you know with some more certainty whether your A and K outs are even any good.

[mr pink]

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Raising gives you the very real possibility of a free turn and river

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a flop raise is gonna get 3-bet here way too often to make it worth trying for a free card.

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and it also lets you know with some more certainty whether your A and K outs are even any good.

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ok. say i raise the flop, villain 3-bets. how do i know he has AA/KK and not QQ/JJ? raising doesn't get you any information, only charges you more to draw.

[Derek132260]

Seeing that his PFA is only 1.5, I wonder how often he's really 3-betting QQ or JJ against this level of pre-flop aggression by you (obviously, you or I probably would, but my PFA is much higher than 1.5 and I would strongly suspect yours is as well).

However, I do understand your reasoning here -- I suppose you really only do gain information if he calls the raise...his 3-bet may make it slightly more likely he's on AA or KK, but you are right that you can't be at all certain of that.

Calling down the turn and river seem like good ideas...at that point if he's AA, KK, or (once the river hits) QQ, at least you're not spewing. Tough hand. Good post. Thanks for the discussion -- made me really think.

[mscags]

I like raising the turn and betting the river, if you get reraised than I go into call down mode.

[JoshuaD]

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Definently raise the turn.. I would have probably raised the flop too.


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Raising the flop is spewing here. It just gets another BB in the pot for no reason. (Villian is going to 3-bet and lead the turn here the vast majority of the time).


I like raising the turn. If he's got a low WtSD, I might wait until the river, but it doesn't sound like this guy knows how to fold.

[avisco01]

I might raise the flop here, hoping to buy a free card on the expensive street if I want it. If Villain reraises on the flop, we have to call anyway. If a blank falls on the turn we can get away from it UI, or call if the pot is big enough to go for our 6 outer. Since we called on the flop I'm not sure what we're up against (TT, QQ, JJ, AKs, AQ, AJ). If Villain just calls the flop I think the K on the turn gives us a reasonable chance to have made the best hand here and we can forego the free card we were hoping to buy with our flop raise. In short, I would have raised on the flop, and react to Villain's response. Since we didn't raise the flop here, I have to raise the turn given that we've hit our K, and see how Villain reacts. I'm not sure I like calling down from the flop to the river in this situation. Am I totally off here?

[KDawgCometh]

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Definently raise the turn.. I would have probably raised the flop too.


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Raising the flop is spewing here. It just gets another BB in the pot for no reason. (Villian is going to 3-bet and lead the turn here the vast majority of the time).


I like raising the turn. If he's got a low WtSD, I might wait until the river, but it doesn't sound like this guy knows how to fold

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since I don't think we can lay this down on the turn, wouldn't the better play be to do as mr pink has done. We are tied with one hand, and slaughtered by two other of the villian's likely holding, and we are way ahead of QQ(on the turn at least). I don't think he'd three bet JJ PF there, but I could be wrong. either way, I think we are losing the least in a very marginal situation where we are gonna lose more often then we win. I also think the fact that this villian looks incapable of folding is more of a reason not to raise

[avisco01]

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Raising gives you the very real possibility of a free turn and river, and it also lets you know with some more certainty whether your A and K outs are even any good.

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I posted before reading this one, this is exactly what I meant. I think on the flop raise or fold is usually best. I usually will only call if I am way ahead and slowplaying or I have a good draw. In this spot, we don't know where we are, and I think a flop raise helps us to know where we are without having to call down on the expensive streets. I don't think its a definite that Villain 3-bets the flop either. If he's as tight as he seems to be, he might give you credit for AA or KK. When the K comes on the turn (hindsight I know), but when that card hits you have an opportunity to take the lead if he checks, or if you had raised. He may even have folded on the turn if you showed strength. Obviously, since I now know he had QQ, its reasonable to assume that he would have folded on the turn if you showed strength at some point. Long story short, raising the flop = debatable, raising the turn = a must.

[thejameser]

with a fairly drawless board and two overs that you are drawing to(thats right folks, AK is a drawing hand), peeling one off the flop as cheaply as possible is important here. once i had tptk i call down.

[baronzeus]

Raise the river. and fold to a 3bet


Edit: or, for you tighter people, raise any non Q or J river, and call a 3bet.