Common situation

[Ghazban]

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I've read on 2+2 that you have correct odds to complete with any two if you have at least 2 limpers in front. Could be; maybe.

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I don't think this can possibly be correct as a blanket statement, especially in NL where implied odds are such a large factor. If there was no more betting after the flop, this might be accurate (even then, I don't know nor do I have any idea how one would calculate the necessary odds as the limpers probably don't have any two random cards).

I will call a minraise from the BB with any two but that's because I have extra information as well as good pot odds. In my excessive arrogance, I believe that makes it worth it. In a limped pot, I don't get that information.

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Not to be an ass, but why make this post if you already know how to play these hands profitably in this situation? Its a junk hand and if you can make a profit with it, you can probably make a profit with any two. Do you complete (or raise) all your SBs?

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Well, making a profit doesn't necessarily mean I'm playing these situations as well as I can. That's why I was interested in others approach, to exchange ideas & improve my play.

Surely that's the point of this forum? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]


And to your second point, I disagree. Ax has far more value than total trash (which I don't complete).

[Ghazban]

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And to your second point, I disagree. Ax has far more value than total trash (which I don't complete).

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Please elaborate.

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And to your second point, I disagree. Ax has far more value than total trash (which I don't complete).

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Please elaborate.

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A few things IMO:

People routinely overvalue A medium kicker when they pair their A, so when you make 2-pair against another Ace you can win a nice pot. When you make 2 pair with total trash on a rag board its harder to get paid anything against a weak top pair hand.

Also, when you make 2 pair with trash, its more likely that your hand gets counterfeited on the turn / river + there is more chance someone improves to a better 2-pair on the turn.

Also when you flop an A you are more comfortable betting out on the flop then when you flop top pair with total trash. You are also more likely to win the pot there and then if no-one beats top pair. When you flop top pair with trash you are less comfortable leading into the field & far more likely to check-fold the best hand. Hence you win less when you pair.

You can also assign less probability to AJ+ being out if there’s no raise (bear in mind I am only talking about 6-max) so when you make top pair with Ax it is a little less likely you are dominated than when you have something like Qx.

Less important is the fact that when you & an opponent both make trips with your low card then you can lose a big pot with trash and likely win a big one with Ax. Obviously when you both make trips with your high card then Ax and XX are both vulnerable hands.

Small things I know, but they add up to a significant difference I think.

[Ghazban]

I feel like playing devil's advocate....

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People routinely overvalue A medium kicker when they pair their A, so when you make 2-pair against another Ace you can win a nice pot. When you make 2 pair with total trash on a rag board its harder to get paid anything against a weak top pair hand.

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This also works when they have an ace and you have bottom two. You'll make two pair more often if you aren't sharing the ace with somebody else. Granted, counterfeiting is a more frequent occurrence here but obviously you can get away from a counterfeited bottom two pair without losing a lot of chips.

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Also, when you make 2 pair with trash, its more likely that your hand gets counterfeited on the turn / river + there is more chance someone improves to a better 2-pair on the turn.

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You can have this problem with Ax, too. If you have A6 vs. A9 on an A62 flop, 9 turn, you're in the same boat.

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Also when you flop an A you are more comfortable betting out on the flop then when you flop top pair with total trash. You are also more likely to win the pot there and then if no-one beats top pair.

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If everybody folds, does it matter that you had top pair? If people are habitually tight postflop, you can lead into the field with anything. In the Party 1/2 and 2/4, people play very cautiously in limped pots (in my experience) so I lead a wide range out of the blinds. The value of my hand is only relevant if I get called (at which point I usually have at least 5 outs).

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When you flop top pair with trash you are less comfortable leading into the field & far more likely to check-fold the best hand. Hence you win less when you pair.

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What do you put people on when you bet TPNK out of position and they call? Do you assume you're ahead? With any junk 1-pair hand, you have this issue but since so many poor players play any ace, its much harder to know if you're any good. What do you prefer? A7o on a A98r flop or T4o on a T93 flop? Both situations present the same problem when you bet and are called.

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You can also assign less probability to AJ+ being out if there’s no raise (bear in mind I am only talking about 6-max) so when you make top pair with Ax it is a little less likely you are dominated than when you have something like Qx.

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This goes both ways. When you hold J8o on a 862 flop, your kicker is probably good.

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Less important is the fact that when you & an opponent both make trips with your low card then you can lose a big pot with trash and likely win a big one with Ax. Obviously when you both make trips with your high card then Ax and XX are both vulnerable hands.

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This also makes the hand harder to get away from when your opponent is full, particularly if there is a card close in proximity to the paired board card (eg: you hold A8o, flop is 988-- a lot of action will be generated both when you're ahead and when you're behind but you will have a hard time knowing when to get away while a decent player can fold his 87s because he knows he's either against a boat or is outkicked).

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Small things I know, but they add up to a significant difference I think.

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Clearly, there is validity to all your points but there are downsides in each circumstance, too. In my opinion, the crux of it is that you have to pay off more hands because your kicker (or your good two pair or whatever) is good while with the other junk hands you can get away even with two pair or better because the action indicates you are beat.

I do NOT advocate completing any two from the small blind; I'm just endeavoring to show that Ax is not significantly better than two random cards.

[TheWorstPlayer]

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And to your second point, I disagree. Ax has far more value than total trash (which I don't complete).

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Please elaborate.

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If anything, Ax sounds like a worse hand than total trash to complete with in the SB since you are offering nice reverse implied odds with your postflop plan. I definitely fold this crap and basically every other hand, too. My complete in the SB is like 2% or something. Well, maybe not QUITE that low...but pretty freaking low.

And my plan for the hand would be to check/call the flop and check/fold the turn usually.

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And to your second point, I disagree. Ax has far more value than total trash (which I don't complete).

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Please elaborate.

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If anything, Ax sounds like a worse hand than total trash to complete with in the SB since you are offering nice reverse implied odds with your postflop plan. I definitely fold this crap and basically every other hand, too. My complete in the SB is like 2% or something. Well, maybe not QUITE that low...but pretty freaking low.

And my plan for the hand would be to check/call the flop and check/fold the turn usually.

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I agree, I would even rather limp A-x offsuit on the button, than for a discount in the small blind (and I almost never play it there). I think often you need to spew chips just to find out if you should let it go. I did play it yesterday day a few times though, but it was a unique situation in which I had the clearest tell i've ever seen on this one opponent with a giant stack, but I was willing to play almost any two against him, because he was so easy to read, and there were such massive implied odds. But that was the only time I can remember playing this.

[nietzreznor]

If others in the pot aren't good/tricky I probably bet out (folding to a raise) since my hand is probably best and I don't want to give a free card to four people.

Against bad LAG/maniac, I c/c or c/r.

Fold otherwise, this spot blows against good opposition when OOP. Of course, if I knew good players had limped, I definitely wouldn't complete in SB with offsuit ace trash.