Ako 5way...A poll...

[Wu36]

I voted fold because I don't know how to play full ring and wanted to see results.

[Rococo]

I can't see folding here. The most likely hand for BB here is something like K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I think that there is a good chance that UTG has some kind of draw as well, maybe 45, with or without the spades. He might be sandbagging a set, but most weak players would fire it in with a set here.

If UTG has spades as well, then he and BB are drawing thinner than they think (and the risk to Hero of giving a free card goes down).

In BB and UTG are both on draws, it would be nice to push.

The problem is that Hero can't ignore the two players left to act. I am more worried about a set behind me than a set in front of me. For that reason, I favor a call for Hero here. If either of the players behind Hero has a set, they likely will blast away with this much in the pot and a spade draw on board. If either of the players behind Hero calls with spades, it isn't a disaster because I am pretty sure that BB, UTG or both have spades as well, so they all will be drawing relatively thin.

If the turn is a brick (i.e. no 2, 7, Q or spade), I consider getting it all in. If a spade hits, Hero should treat his spade redraw as a 4-5 outer, not a full draw, and do whatever makes sense.

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
I mostly raise and sometimes call, but 8 people so far have said fold. people that say fold, shed light on your choice.

if I had to construct an argument for folding it would go something along the lines of a dude leading into 5 players one of whom raised PF can probably beat TPTK. but that's not a very good argument, so I want to hear one [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I'll be one of the few suckers to pipe up about why I voted fold, then you guys can berate me for being so weak :-)

Essentially my reasoning for fold begins with the fact that BB got a pretty good price to call preflop with a variety of holdings. He then leads out into field of 5 players, including the PFR with a smallish bet, potentially looking for a cheap card (draw) or a big hand looking to weak lead/3bet someone's draw/worse made hand.

From there, UTG, who doesn't even have a pot raise left in his stack, simply calls (??). I'm not sure what range he would do this with, but it seems like he's not too afraid of others coming in after him, especially the PFR who could easily raise the pot after him. I took this as a sign of strength. he's certainly not trying to isolate a weak bet from BB by just calling.

I felt the combination of these plays lead to TPTK being no goot in this spot.

I'm not really sure what everyone who says "raise" is putting BB and UTG on with their actions. It seems like the best case we're looking at is some sort of combo draw out of BB and mid PP from UTG? If UTG had a mid PP and he thought it was good, wouldn't he push? Or does everyone think they have worse kings, or both have draws? Do short stack UTG's call in EP with suited connectors?

Ok feel free to beat up my swiss cheese logic. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Edit: I didn't say anything about the players after Hero either, shouldn't they be considered? I think if the fold option was taken away from me, I would vote for calling and making a move on a safe turn where my equity is higher against the draw(s).

KoW

[BobboFitos]

who said fold? lol!

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
i need to know something about these guys...
i like a kamikaze all in here, generally.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was thinking the same thing, actually.

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
who said fold? lol!

[/ QUOTE ]

I did I admit it [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[fnord_too]

With the ace of spades, I like calling here. As noted, the bet is especially scary since it is inviting UTG to push, which will just barely be a legal raise. I think folding getting 9:2 is not so hot, especially if there is a chance BB is a moron. (Does you not knowing this person mean he is not a regular in this game or you are not a regular in this game? If it is the former, the chance he is bad is higher I think). I'm not sure of my line going forward, but I don't think a raise accomplishes much here. Some worse hands fold, better hands stack you, maybe you get "lucky" and get the BB all in with a draw you are a favorite to, but if he is on a draw calling here and closing the action seems like the better play. If he has a set (entirely possible I think) he may freeze up if a scare card comes and let you off cheeply.

Edit - man did I misread this, I thought it was 3 way on the flop. 5 way, yuk. I'm leaning to raising here. I don't know how much though, since the pot is 1100 after you call, which makes things really awkward with effective stacks of about 1700 behind. Maybe raise to 800? Pushing seems a little yuckier than making it 800 all day.

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]
If he led into you with a set, that'd be a standard play.

[/ QUOTE ]

[tagtastic]

I had typed out a full reply arguing raising all-in if you think BB is bad and folding if you think he's quite good (I will often weak-ish lead like this with a flopped set to invite a raise from AK or AA protecting against draws here, makes sense he'd call the pf raise w/ pockets OOP as well).

However, I got to the end of my post and I still wasn't sure if calling could be the right answer. Any raise you makes seems difficult to play on later streets (except all-in, but I'd say there's quite a good chance BB or UTG has a made hand that beats you.. UTG has a short enough stack that he can't protect his hand, so a call would probably make sense from him).

This is very tough spot IMO, with the pot and stack sizes as they are, and two more players yet to act! With no strong reads I'm really not sure what to do here, all 3 options definitely have arguments behind them. I'd probably just call and see what happens, I think you may be able to get away from this cheaply that way or take it down on the turn if everyone slows down. I anxiously await replies from some of the great minds here. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[AZK]

Any thoughts to the fact that I also have two guys to act after me?

edit: every option seems to suck. If I call, and the other two guys call the pot is HUGE on the turn, if it bricks and they lead what are you going to do? fold? The shortstack probably has a king and is not going anywhere, so his entire stack is dead money, I feel like everyone knows this, if I raise, I can only see myself getting action from a better hand, or maybe a sick draw. I can't see raising and then folding to an all in, so that sucks. Folding sucks, but might be the "safer" play, does this make any sense? People calling either have a draw or have me beat, rarely will I get lucky enough to have both opponents have TT or something like KQ, right? I just can't see myself being good if we make it to showdown with these bets...