Just got pulled over while walking

[AdamL]

Yeah, the guy was really looking for a fight or something. He's not the first police officer I've met with an ego the size of Mount Everest, but he's the first one to be so flamboyant about it.

Here's my report, being sent to the police for review...

At or close to 3:30am (DavidC) and myself were walking home from Tim Hortons when a police car crossed the road and pulled over to question us.

The officer asked us what we were doing and where we were going. While his reasons for asking us are completely understandable, we declined to comment on our personal business but volunteered our names and addresses instead. We used a steady, calm and cooperative tone and neutral body language. At this point the two police officers got out of the car and officer #xxxx said “What the hell is your problem?” David said: “We don’t have a problem, I just don’t want to comment on where I’m going”. The officer said, “Well why not? What are you doing?” David said, “We’re walking.”

We stated our full names and asked if we could leave now, and he said “No”. I asked if we were under arrest, he said “No.” I asked him what would happen if we left, he said “I’d arrest you and bring you to the station.” I have no idea what charge we could be arrested for after giving our names and asking to leave.

We offered our names and addresses, but he wasn’t enthusiastic to write it down until he had called David an “[censored]” and a “dick” several times.

At this point the officer attempted to search us, asking us to put our hands on the hood of the vehicle. David said, “Officer, this situation is very upsetting for me, and I feel as though I am not allowed to leave. May I leave?” He said “No you may not.” David asked, “Am I under arrest?” The officer said no. David said, “If I am not able to leave, that means I am under arrest, doesn’t it?” The officer replied, “Are you guys in law or security?” David replied “No.”

The officer then moved behind the police car to call in our personal information. The officer ran a background check on our names we had given him. David mentioned he hadn’t seen anyone and asked if they were looking for somebody. The officer said, “Hey David, how about this: no comment” in a sarcastic tone.

After the background check we again asked if we could leave and the officer said “No, and let me tell you something…” He then started giving us a hard time for not telling him where we were going, and again started calling us “dicks”. I don’t think we needed to be insulted for our choice of not volunteering personal information. Nor should we be held under duress so that he can give us a piece of his mind.

I asked the officer not to call us dicks or assholes, and he said he could do whatever he wanted and that if I didn’t like it, I could file a complaint. I asked him for his name, he gave me his last name and badge number. I asked if he had a card or could write it down, and his response was “What, don’t you have a brain?”

Shortly thereafter we were permitted to leave.

[AdamL]

BTW, For what it's worth, I completely understand how our behaviour and declining to comment could be stressful and annoying for the police. I also don't intend to do it in the future, although I'm not necessarily going to volunteer my personal business either.

The impresive thing about the experience was how the officer lost it, and the legal eggshells of holding us under duress to insult us.

[Brainwalter]

It's noble work you're doing.

[BusterStacks]

[ QUOTE ]
this is really awesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

[wheelz]

[ QUOTE ]
He again called us dicks for not answering questions and not allowing him to "investigate a complaint"

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I'm also in Canada, whenever this happens to me and my friends we always get some bs like "yeah I thought you were maybe going to rob that house over there" or something too. I guess they just make something up as a reason for why they wanted to talk to you.

[Transference]

Hey guys, I dig your little experiment.

In the US this encounter is known as a stop. Law Enforcement can stop you based on reasonable suspicion and detain you to breifly question you. I know at least some states have laws requiring that you identify yourself if stopped, but reasonable suspicion is still required for the stop in the first place. You have been clearly stopped or "seized" when the cop told you youd be arrested if you walked away. They can ask to remove your hands from your pockets for their safety, and even sometimes frisk you during a legitimate stop. Arrest requires probable cause, refusal to answer questions in itself is not enough for this.

Incorrectly telling you that you must answer questions is coercive and not allowed, if you have the right to refuse to answer or to leave they must answer your questions correctly. Your not necessarily under arrest if you are detained, but they cannot move you beyond a short distance and cannot detain your for an extended period of time.

Cooperating is good because they can't hold you any longer if the stop fails to confirm suspicions, but if youve got something to hide he best thing is usually just to STFU. These guys were definately out of line at the very least by insulting you and you should report them.

[DavidC]

Oy... I hope you don't mind if I take this apart a bit.

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, the guy was really looking for a fight or something. He's not the first police officer I've met with an ego the size of Mount Everest, but he's the first one to be so flamboyant about it.

Here's my report, being sent to the police for review...

At or close to 3:30am (DavidC) and myself were walking home from Tim Hortons when a police car crossed the road and pulled over to question us.

The officer asked us what we were doing and where we were going. While his reasons for asking us are completely understandable, we declined to comment on our personal business but volunteered our names and addresses instead. We used a steady, calm and cooperative tone and neutral body language. At this point the two police officers got out of the car and officer #xxxx said “What the hell is your problem?” David said: “We don’t have a problem, I just don’t want to comment on where I’m going”. The officer said, “Well why not? What are you doing?” David said, “We’re walking.”


[/ QUOTE ]

Upon re-reading, I now see that you didn't send the "Mt Everest" line to the PD. Good stuff. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Also, I don't remember saying we're walking. In the confusion, I may have, but I specifically attempted to avoid saying this, as I was trying to be minimally co-operative.

[ QUOTE ]

We stated our full names and asked if we could leave now, and he said “No”. I asked if we were under arrest, he said “No.” I asked him what would happen if we left, he said “I’d arrest you and bring you to the station.” I have no idea what charge we could be arrested for after giving our names and asking to leave.

We offered our names and addresses, but he wasn’t enthusiastic to write it down until he had called David an “[censored]” and a “dick” several times.

At this point the officer attempted to search us, asking us to put our hands on the hood of the vehicle. David said, “Officer, this situation is very upsetting for me, and I feel as though I am not allowed to leave. May I leave?” He said “No you may not.” David asked, “Am I under arrest?” The officer said no. David said, “If I am not able to leave, that means I am under arrest, doesn’t it?” The officer replied, “Are you guys in law or security?” David replied “No.”

The officer then moved behind the police car to call in our personal information. The officer ran a background check on our names we had given him. David mentioned he hadn’t seen anyone and asked if they were looking for somebody. The officer said, “Hey David, how about this: no comment” in a sarcastic tone.

After the background check we again asked if we could leave and the officer said “No, and let me tell you something…” He then started giving us a hard time for not telling him where we were going, and again started calling us “dicks”. I don’t think we needed to be insulted for our choice of not volunteering personal information. Nor should we be held under duress so that he can give us a piece of his mind.

I asked the officer not to call us dicks or assholes, and he said he could do whatever he wanted and that if I didn’t like it, I could file a complaint. I asked him for his name, he gave me his last name and badge number.

[/ QUOTE ]

It should be worth nothing too things here.

1) I think he said his first name. It was one syllable, and he said it quickly, but I thought I heard something... though if his last name was McXXX, then it could have been "Mc" that I heard, but I don't think so.

2) He pointed to his badge, said the number, but (I believe, accidentally) held his finger over all but the first number. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I don't think that was his fault (because he couldn't see that he was doing it), but it wasn't as helpful as it could have been.

Don't forget that you asked him for a card or to write it down, and he said that if we had a brain, we could remember it.

What a dick, by the way. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I don't know why the OPP insists on hiring dumb jocks as police officers, but that seems to be the pattern in recent years / among younger police officers... maybe the younger guys are always dumb jocks, but as they get older they become more calm, I'm not sure, but the middle-aged police officers I've dealt with have been much easier.

[ QUOTE ]

I asked if he had a card or could write it down, and his response was “What, don’t you have a brain?”


[/ QUOTE ]

... [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]

Shortly thereafter we were permitted to leave.

[/ QUOTE ]

We were TOLD to leave. He said, "On your way."

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He again called us dicks for not answering questions and not allowing him to "investigate a complaint"

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm also in Canada, whenever this happens to me and my friends we always get some bs like "yeah I thought you were maybe going to rob that house over there" or something too. I guess they just make something up as a reason for why they wanted to talk to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's something interesting:

Unless the owner of a property complains of your presence on that property, you're not trespassing. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I either approached a police officer one day, or perhaps called the station, to ask about a cruiser that was parked the wrong way in a one-way entrance to a plaza at night, looking to catch speeders. That's what they told me (that unless the owner of the property complained, it was permissable).

Therefore, keep this in mind if you're harassed while talking in a mall parking lot or something like that.

By-laws are the exception to this, of course, but those are always civil, afaik, and would only result in a fine.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey guys, I dig your little experiment.

In the US this encounter is known as a stop. Law Enforcement can stop you based on reasonable suspicion and detain you to breifly question you. I know at least some states have laws requiring that you identify yourself if stopped, but reasonable suspicion is still required for the stop in the first place. You have been clearly stopped or "seized" when the cop told you youd be arrested if you walked away. They can ask to remove your hands from your pockets for their safety, and even sometimes frisk you during a legitimate stop. Arrest requires probable cause, refusal to answer questions in itself is not enough for this.

Incorrectly telling you that you must answer questions is coercive and not allowed, if you have the right to refuse to answer or to leave they must answer your questions correctly. Your not necessarily under arrest if you are detained, but they cannot move you beyond a short distance and cannot detain your for an extended period of time.

Cooperating is good because they can't hold you any longer if the stop fails to confirm suspicions, but if youve got something to hide he best thing is usually just to STFU. These guys were definately out of line at the very least by insulting you and you should report them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm of the opinion that if you're ever caught doing anything, then you have one of two lines:

1) Talk to the cops and try for mercy.

2) STFU and don't say a damn word until your lawyer is present. Nothing at all... basically this gives your lawyer the best chance to save your dumb ass. Watching shows about real crime investigations has shown me that this is the best way to go.

FWIW, I haven't committed any serious crimes, and once the cops pulled me over to ask if I'd seen a few kids in the area, and I told them what direction they'd headed (they were minors out past curfew and their parents were anxious). So I'm not trying to be a prick or anything, but when there isn't a good reason for it, I'm not going to let these guys disrupt my evening without disrupting theirs.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Good, don't let him run you over. Reminds me of the constructive dialogue when I was arrested on the airport in Belarus. First:

5 guys with machine guns: You have broken this and this rules. We have proof. You are under arrest.
Arnfinn: No, I haven't done anything wrong
5 guys with machine guns: You have broken this and this rules. We have proof. You are under arrest.
Arnfinn: No, I haven't done anything wrong.
5 guys with machine guns: You have broken this and this rules. We have proof. You are under arrest.
Arnfinn: No, I haven't done anything wrong.
5 guys with machine guns: You have broken this and this rules. We have proof. You are under arrest.
Arnfinn: No, I haven't done anything wrong.

etc. etc.

KGB-officer with better English arrives. Dialogue goes as follows:
KGB-officer: You have broken this and this rules. We have proof. You are under arrest.
Arnfinn: No, I haven't done anything wrong.
KGB-officer: We have proof.
Arnfinn: No, I haven't done anything wrong.
KGB-officer: We have proof.
Arnfinn: No, I haven't done anything wrong.
KGB-officer: We have proof.
Arnfinn: No, I haven't done anything wrong.
KGB-officer: We have proof.
Arnfinn: No, I haven't done anything wrong.

etc. etc.

KGB-officer: You are free to leave, but if you break these rules again in future you will be in trouble.
Arnfinn: See you later.
KGB-officer: Have a nice trip. Sorry for the problems (!).

Upon which she followed me through every checkpoint, the guards tried to check me, but she just told everyone to back off, so that I did not have to show either my luggage or passport or anything.