Toyota: "No Financial Justification in US for Buying Hybrids"

[Ed Miller]

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In the case of hybrids, society is bearing the cost (i.e., by spending from the public fisc) to pay for the actions of the gas guzzler driver (who is a free-rider).

Net net, subsidy of hybrid purchases has less to do with making sure that cost-creators bear the external costs for their actions, and more to do with creating incentives through public spending to influence private behavior.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand your point. It sounds like you are arguing that a $2,000 credit for hybrids is not internalizing, but a $2,000 tax reduction for everyone PLUS a $2,000 penalty for non-hybrids would be. That can't be what you are arguing because obviously they are the same.

I do agree that the present tax code is not designed to internalize automobile pollution. SUVs and trucks get a tax credit too.

Honestly, I think the tax code is so messed up that it needs to be redesigned from scratch. I think that each car should be assessed an "emissions per mile driven" number and be charged a per-mile levy to be assessed every time a car is registered. Just like you pay for power per KWh, I think you should have to pay per mile you drive a car (lower emissions paying less), above and beyond gas prices.

Obviously, there are lots of kinks to be worked out with that, not the least of which being that in our country, such a levy would be extremely regressive right now. It would have to be phased in, or a compensating credit would have to be put in and phased out.

But right now this externality essentially isn't being addressed, and it's not because it's an intractible problem. It's because many with money and power right now have a vested interest in ensuring air pollution remains an externality.

[Ed Miller]

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The easiest way of forcing drivers to externalize their costs is to tax gasoline heavily. Subsidies through tax credits for hybrid vehicle purchases deals more with trying to drive volume for technology development.

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I used to favor a heavy gasoline tax, but now I'm not sure I do. Gasoline isn't the problem... emissions are the problem. It's a tough question, though, and a gasoline tax might be the best way to address the problem because, though imperfect, it's relatively simple.

I dunno. I'm not claiming I have all the answers. I have very few answers... as these are tough questions. But they are questions worth raising and addressing, and unfortunately I see our government entirely unwilling to even discuss this stuff.

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Also there are psychic benefits

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This is the only benefit. It is the green's version of conspicuous consumption, and being better than the Joneses.


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Certainly the "green's version of consipicuous consumption" is one motivation, but there are plenty of other motivations as well.

Regardless of your view of the morality of the tax benefit, it does exist and is therefore another motivation.

Other motivations to buy hybrids include:
1. Some carpool lanes allow hybrids or ultra low emissions vehicles without a passenger (thus, saves time on freeways)
2. Some states require fewer smog checks on low emissions vehicles (thus, saves money on smog checks)
3. Hybrids don't get stolen as often (excluding the hybrid civic)
4. Currently, hybrids retain their value better than non-hybrids

Everyone has a variety of motivations for why they purchased the car they have. Here is my story:

I bought a used 2000 Honda Insight for $9500 two years ago. Kelley Blue Book rates my car worth at least
private party = $9,810
trade-in = $8,260
That's pretty good, I'd say.

I bought my Insight because:
1. I like how it looks. It's space-age cool. It has rear fender skirts! It's awesome!
2. I like how it feels. It's small and cosy, like the womb [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I love it. I can make U-turns anywhere, no problem. I can parallel park anywhere, no problem.
3. It reminds me of the car I had in high school (a Toyota Starlet). The hatchback makes this small car way more versatile than my last sedan. I have loaded it up with all kinds of things.
4. It was a good deal. I didn't get ripped off. It hasn't had any major problems.
5. It stands out in a crowd. Yeah, I draw attention. People always ask me about it. People have even left notes on it with phone numbers. They like it.
6. It never gets vandalized. My last car (Toyota Tercel) was broken into 4 times! But no one touches this car.
7. Since I can go so far on a tank, I'm always up for road trips. It brings back that high school "always want to drive" feeling.

I'm sure I'd like a cabrio or a mini coopper too, but my lil insight is just awesome! I love her!

PS - Mason drives an Insight too, just like mine!

[andyfox]

I saw an op/ed article about this in the WSJ either yesterday or today. I guess the Prius costs many thousands of dollars more than similar non-Hybrid cars (I think the figure was $9,000, but I might be wrong), so you'd have to drive uber miles to make it economically +EV.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Isn't there another problem with hybrids. That is, the energy costs associated with making them (perhaps associated with batteries) exceed the typical fuel savings.

Thought it was discussed elsewhere on this forum a while back but I can't find the link.

~ Rick

[Six_of_One]

Since nobody mentioned this, I have to chime in...there's another advantage to buying a hybrid that has nothing to do saving gas. You can drive in the carpool lane! I know several people who are considering buying hybrids for only that reason.

Outside of Los Angeles, of course, this may not be such a big deal.

[sirio11]

I really love my Prius, and I already knew about the fueling costs vs the cost of the car when I bought it. But it's just a wonderful car.

[InchoateHand]

And then the obvious factor that purchasing these cars builds the market for them with possibly very beneficial long-term benefits...oh nevermind, you DON"T SAVE GAS OVER THE NEXT THREEE YEARS HAHA YOU ARE STUPID GO BUY A HUMMER LOLOL!!!I AM A CONVERSATIVE

[Bjorn]

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Toyota had set a target of reducing the extra cost of the hybrid to a level where it could compete on value with ordinary cars by 2010 at the current US petrol price of just over $2 a gallon, he said.[ QUOTE ]


Personally I'd be very suprised if the US gas prices are still below $3/gallon by 2010.

/Bjorn