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#11
10-25-2005, 07:47 PM
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Re: Limit TT Check Up
I don't want to sound like a dickhead, but checking this flop sucks.
If you bet, the guy behind you might raise, putting gut-shots in a crappy spot, and then you can 3-bet making their lives pretty much miserable. If you check and he checks it through and a Q or J comes off, that sucks, even though you have a redraw. Also, other worse hands hands, (besides gutshot draws), hands that are drawing very slim, will call. 
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#13
10-25-2005, 07:51 PM
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Re: Limit TT Check Up
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I am tempted to check that flop if I knew there was an aggressive player behind me. That board had to hit someone and it is likely I am huge favorite. I can then trap the other players for two more bets and build a big pot. Remember that situations like this are gold in limit hold em. Focus on all the players in the pot at that time. You may even trick an aggressive player into a bluff. Your way ahead and you collect your money on the flop. [/ QUOTE ] I amiably disagree with checking the flop. You have to protect your hand with a raised (big) pot. Only one player acts behind you and giving a free card here would be the worst. [/ QUOTE ] How could giving a free card be the worst result for you? There is much worse things you can do in poker. The big question here is how aggressive was the player left to act behind the OP. The only hand ahead of you at this point is QJ. That could be out there but I am not playing this passive. I even have live outs against that hand. Also, to the poster who feared the second ace coming out, why? [/ QUOTE ] The pot is already big, you should focus on winning it rather than building it (says Ed Miller). You have to bet because you're giving infinite odds to your opponents with 3 broadway cards on the board. You want to fold any Q5s or whatever else may be out there.
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#14
10-25-2005, 07:52 PM
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Re: Limit TT Check Up
[ QUOTE ]
I am tempted to check that flop if I knew there was an aggressive player behind me. That board had to hit someone and it is likely I am huge favorite. I can then trap the other players for two more bets and build a big pot. Remember that situations like this are gold in limit hold em. Focus on all the players in the pot at that time. You may even trick an aggressive player into a bluff. Your way ahead and you collect your money on the flop. [/ QUOTE ] I think this advice lacks any depth of reasoning. 1) There is only one player left to act you. The chances of getting in a check-raise on that basis alone makes this a slim opportunity. 2) Even if the player behind you is aggressive (which is assumption which does not appear in OP), you have no reason to suspect that he actually has a hand worth betting. An aggressive player may not stupidly fire bets into a pot when the preflop raiser checks a board with AK on it. 3) There's no reason that the board "had to have hit someone". You have a limper and a cold-caller. We know that we don't know much about the limper and the cold-caller could be holding a pocket pair smaller than everything on the board. You also have no reason to suspect the big blind has anything more than a weak holding. 4) Giving up a free card isn't completely miserable, but it's pretty bad. You can get a player to call with a gutshot that *looks* profitable (not that they are even thinking about the pot odds, but this works even against those who are), not knowing that their outs are severely discounted due to the boat redraw you have. *THIS* is gold in limit hold'em.
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#15
10-25-2005, 07:52 PM
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Re: Limit TT Check Up
Different strokes for different players. That is what makes poker a fascinating game. If they player behind me has a high aggression frequency, I am checking this. If he is passive I am betting. An aggressive player, who is checked to, will take a stab at the pot with that board.
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#18
10-25-2005, 07:57 PM
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Re: Limit TT Check Up
[ QUOTE ]
Different strokes for different players. That is what makes poker a fascinating game. If they player behind me has a high aggression frequency, I am checking this. If he is passive I am betting. An aggressive player, who is checked to, will take a stab at the pot with that board. [/ QUOTE ] There is a wide range of situations in limit hold'em where there *IS* a best answer. You have failed to provide much reasoning to suggest why checking could be in the running to be the best play. All you have is a very specific situation, which is "villain *will* take a stab at the pot". Even if you have an aggressive villain who will bet most of the time in that position, even with nothing, you are still better off betting it yourself. The times when the aggressive player has a hand, you will earn more by putting more bets into the pot than what you can win getting him to "take a stab" at it.
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#19
10-25-2005, 07:59 PM
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Re: Limit TT Check Up
[ QUOTE ]
Different strokes for different players. That is what makes poker a fascinating game. [/ QUOTE ] It's also what makes it a profitable game. The most profitable decision here is betting. Maybe you don't want to listen to me and that's cool because I don't have many posts and hence much experience. However, many of the more experienced and knowledgable posters are advocating betting the flop. I think SSHE would as well.
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#20
10-25-2005, 08:01 PM
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Re: Limit TT Check Up
It just depends on the players at my table. With AJ, I am betting to protect my hand even if there is an aggressive player behind me. With KQ, if the players are passive, I am betting in hopes for a free card on the turn. It also defines my hand. If I do not make my draw, that does not mean I am going away. It is a decent size pot and is worth sticking around for when I have second pair with a good kicker.
The big thing, for me, is just knowing what can I get away with. To do that, you have to know the players at your table which sometimes occurs in online poker. I have found that passive players will fold when an ace is out there and just call down when they have an ace on the board like this. I am sort of deviating away from the topic, so I will let the thread get back to that.
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