Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?

[PairTheBoard]

I once had a nice jewish girlfriend whose sister was a 2200 rated tournament chess player and whose father was some kind of financial genius. Unfortunately she was a hard core Astrologer/Numerologist with a specialty in numerology. She was very nice in every way except for how she brought numerology into everything we did. "Oh did you see the 17 leaves on the 9th branch of that tree? Do you know what THAT means"? I quickly found this intollerable. However I would have much preferred her for a girlfriend than a practicing heroin addict.

From what I've seen of serious Astrology Practitioners they seem little harmed by it. They are happy in their little circles of fellow believers. They certainly will never go anyplace in reputable academia but they aren't likely to die of hot doses, dirty needles, or unusually common obstruction of the bowels.

I do not know if they have reasonable answers to the statistical studies. I imagine they come up with something that takes the discussion out of the realm of hard science and into the realm of mysticism, but I'm no expert. If the language they use is understood as mystical rather than scientific then they are like any other religion. If they insist they have science that contradicts evidence then the psychological state they are in is either strange or dishonest or maybe strangely dishonest. Whatever it is, they seem to enjoy it and people seem attracted to it.

Here's the thing though. Just as I could not tollerate a girlfriend who constantly brought numerology into everything, I doubt I could tollerate a girlfriend who constantly brought technical issues of logic and EV into everything. Sometimes it's healthy to give logic a rest and engage in a little whimsy. Some people like that direction so much they devote themselves to it, study it, develop it, teach it, and live it. There is much more to being a human being than logic and EV. Part of humanity's strength is the way different people specialize in different aspects of the human condition. Sitting on top of the tower of your specialty and calling those exhibiting other aspects of the human condition subhuman, or imbiciles, just shows a lack of understanding of what it means to be human.

PairTheBoard

[David Sklansky]

"Sometimes it's healthy to give logic a rest and engage in a little whimsy."

Listen carefully because this is very important. Logic and whimsy are not about the same stuff. Being "logical" is not the same thing as being "sensible". It is simply a procedure that makes sure that two statements do not contradict each other. It makes no claim as to which statement is true, if either is. It simply will sometimes point out that they can't both be true using rules of deduction that YOU agree to.

Almost no one will adhere to blatently contradictory ideas. Zero Mexicans bowl well. My friend Jose averages 220. My friend Jose is Mexican. Anyone would feel ridiculous saying those three things. However when the chain of reasoning connecting two thoughts, indisputable as it may be, is sufficiently long and/or complex, people, especially those weak in logic, will sometimes hold to both thoughts even when they are as contradictory as the Mexican example. Yet the only difference is the complexity of the proof. And again we are specifying that the rules governing the chain of reasoning are agreed to even by those who have trouble following along.

The bottom line is that how logical and how whimsical you are need not be related. If you believe in the tooth fairy you are not being illogical. Unless you also believe in other facts that will lead to (using rules of deduction that you agree to) the non existence of such tooth fairy.

[jason1990]

Belief in astrology can be very damaging. If your only exposure to astrology is the horoscopes in the newspaper, then it may seem like it only makes vague, mostly positive predictions. But this is not universally true. Sometimes astrologers make very specific and very negative predictions. This can cause serious emotional trauma to the subject of the prediction (if they believe in it, of course).

There are entire cultures that believe in astrology. They teach it to their children from a very young age. As the children get older, especially those of the current generation who are exposed to more of the world, they often realize that those beliefs are hogwash. But I'd bet that most of them -- even those that are mathematical/logical geniuses -- are affected by those old beliefs in some way or another, perhaps subconsciously.

Maybe in America, astrology is all about people believing in silly stuff because they're imbeciles. But in general, this is a much bigger issue than that.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]

A serious devotee of astrology, who is aware of the science and the statistics, deserves contempt and a bad name. Perhaps subhuman is not the right word. But something similar is, in my opinion. To show how strongly I feel about this subject I will say that I would never marry someone who fully believed in astrology regardless of the evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

If evidence proved that astrology was correct, you still wouldn't marry someone? That seems a bit silly.

I think the basic premise of astrology actually has a lot of validity. The premise being that there are 12 archetypes of humanity, and out of those twelve there is a ratio that relates to the planetary alignment and the nature of the person being born.

The Greeks for instance showed that there was a relationship between the diatonic scale and the number of planets in our solar system. To spare the boring scholarly details, the conclusion was that in essence the cosmos was music. Now I'll take a leap of faith and assume that you understand the relationship between music and math. If these relationships do indeed exist (math,music,planets), then how is it not conceivable that there may be a relationship that can be explained about the nature of particular human archetypes based on planetary alignment.

I think where the whole astrology thing (at least in modern times) falls apart in that it's quite difficult to collate all this data into a systematic and understandable system. There are so many people INTERPRETING this data based on their own loose experience, that it becomes quite skewed an inaccurate.

I consider myself a fairly rational person, but I definitely wouldn't rule out the fact that astrology, if accurately understood, could indeed be quite valid. Do I think most of it is today? No. Yet some of the ancient readings are quite interesting, especially Tibetan astrology for example.

It's quite unfortunate that you're closing your mind so quickly to the possibility of truth. Wouldn't it be better to claim ignorance, and be open to learning something new?

[PLOlover]

Are you disparaging Ron and Nancy Reagan?

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]

The Greeks for instance showed that there was a relationship between the diatonic scale and the number of planets in our solar system.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are at least 9 planets in our solar system and only 8 notes in the diatonic scale.

What's the relation? What proof is there that if there is a relation, it's not casual?

[drudman]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you disparaging Ron and Nancy Reagan?

[/ QUOTE ]

And Mexican bowlers too?

[andyfox]

Don't you see that you've just demonstrated the wisdom of Pair the Board's post?

[andyfox]

"if I had to choose between my son being an astrology believer all his life or a heroin addict all his life, I would choose the latter."

How sad. Even sadder because you're not even sure you understand astrology correctly.

[andyfox]

I wonder if David voted for Reagan the second time, after it was revealed that he made some decisions based on the advice of Nancy's astrologer.