Leadership

[MMMMMM]

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Btw, the fact that people don't parade out their personal anecdotes of witnessed racism on this forum, does nothing to help prove that racism is or is not prevalent in today's society.

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As I have stated numerous times already, I was not saying it PROVED anything of the sort; only that it SUGGESTED that seriously bad incidents of racism with deleterious effect are not extremely prevalent.

[MMMMMM]

Newfant,

If your debate opponent follows with a serious error in reasoning, rather than merely opinion, you may indeed reply to correct it.

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Btw, the fact that people don't parade out their personal anecdotes of witnessed racism on this forum, does nothing to help prove that racism is or is not prevalent in today's society.

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As I have stated numerous times already, I was not saying it PROVED anything of the sort; only that it SUGGESTED that seriously bad incidents of racism with deleterious effect are not extremely prevalent.

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Do you consider hate crimes as incidents of racism?

[DVaut1]

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Sorry for not having actually given you the last word, DVaut1--I am perhaps too much of a stickler for well-reasoned arguments and I thought it necessary to point out some errors.

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Curious that someone who claims to be a 'stickler for well-reasoned arguments' would continue trying to defend your claims in this thread.

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I perceive the personal experiences or anecdotal evidence as weighing more than you do; you perceive it as being less weighty, and both views are fine; and it's fine too that we both perceive the degree of serious racism in this country to be at different levels.

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Actually, I don't give any weight to anecdotal evidence at all.

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You would not allow even the most minimal suggestion based on personal experiences of several persons over decades, and that just doesn't make complete sense.

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I think it does make sense - complete sense, in fact.

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If you had instead said you thought the personal experiences could be largely discounted statistically and meant rather little, you would not have gotten an argument from me because the degree to which they might suggest anything is hard to guess and it very well could be little.

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Even if we came to the agreement that anecdotal evidence meant very little - the fact that the best you can do to prove that "race issues are DEAD....the race card is DEAD" is to bandy about 'evidence' that even you concede means 'very little' is quite strange (and rather silly).

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It's just the "ZERO" assertion that I felt had to be disagreed with;

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Not sure why you're so intent on defending the suggestive power of anecdotal evidence; which is the rather wordy way of saying I'm not sure why you felt the claim that anecdotal evidence has no suggestive powers had to be disagreed with.

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I would have acknowledged both that the anecdotes might mean little and that serious incidents might be more prevalent than I would guess. I just wasn't willing to acknowledge that experiences suggested NOTHING,

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Again, racism is subtle; we should expect a lack of personal experiences; only rigorous studies/research can suffice as something meaningful.

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when all I was arguing was that they suggested a lack of extreme prevalence.

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Not sure I made the claim that racism is extremely prevalent; this reeks of a red herring. I'm not interested in defending the notion that racism is extremely prevalent, only that race issues aren't DEAD.

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Anyway I'm sorry if this left you with hard feelings of any kind; that was not my intention.

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As I said, I'm only here for entertainment, and I don't have any hard feelings at all. The moment 2+2 makes me feel angry, bitter, gives me a headache, etc. - I'll find something else to do with my time.

In other words, I don't really care enough about you (or anything/anyone else on 2+2) to leave me with hard feelings; if I did, I'd find a new hobby.

[MMMMMM]

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Btw, the fact that people don't parade out their personal anecdotes of witnessed racism on this forum, does nothing to help prove that racism is or is not prevalent in today's society.

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As I have stated numerous times already, I was not saying it PROVED anything of the sort; only that it SUGGESTED that seriously bad incidents of racism with deleterious effect are not extremely prevalent.



Do you consider hate crimes as incidents of racism?

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Yes, I do consider them to be so (except maybe if they are hate crimes against another group, such as gays).

Now, have you personally ever witnessed a hate crime, or been told of one by someone directly involved in one (perhaps by the victim, for instance)?

There is no doubt that hate crimes do exist. Yet I think it would be quite a stretch to claim that they are a prevalent occurrence. And I'll bet that veryfew posters, if any, on this board have ever had personal experience involving a hate crime. Which, of course, is to be rather expected, since after all, hate crimes are not very prevalent;-)

[SheetWise]

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I wish the pope would have come out and condemned Pat Robertson's call for the assassination of a foreign national. He really should have, even though everyone knows he is against it. It really would have helped the PR of christians.

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Grandma always said, wish in one hand ...

I wish upon you a degree in finance, and the funds to ... learn. There is no greater curse.

[DVaut1]

Since the other thread was locked, and I was told to move this here...here we go...

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Okay, first…read this:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...rt=10&vc=1

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If racism were as prevalent in this country today as you claim it to be, don't you think you or I or any other respected poster would have piped up with just ONE personally observed, serious, incident? That you couldn't do so, helps support my thesis that racism is for all practical effects and purposes, more or less dead in today's America.

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Now enjoy the rest. I know I did:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;o=&vc=1

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All in all, the race card, and race issue ARE DEAD--except for those with axes to grind or those who remain ideologically mired in ancient (modern) history.

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;o=&vc=1

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I never even claimed that "racism was dead”

This was misconstrued and I was misquoted as saying "racism is DEAD". I'm not going to bother going back right now to find out who the culprit was.

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;o=&vc=1

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I didn't even claim "racism is DEAD"

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;o=&vc=1

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...to the effect that I was saying racism itself is DEAD. However that is not what I wrote. The "dead" part referred to the "race card" part. I'm not saying racism itself is dead

Also, I'm not the one obfuscating here. You guys apparently continue to wilfully misinterpret my post despite my best attempts at clarification. In fact parts of my posts have been misrepresented several times in several ways in this thread.

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;o=&vc=1

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I'm not saying racism is dead;

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;o=&vc=1

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By saying racism is largely DEAD in this country today, I don't mean "non-existent"--I mean of so little importance that it doesn't matter much anymore. Of course it still exists. It's just that most Americans aren't racist and the effects of any racism practiced today are negligible in the larger picture.

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;o=&vc=1

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and realize that by "dead" I don't mean "non-existent".

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;o=&vc=1

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How many times do I have to repeat that I am NOT saying racism is dead or almost dead?

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;o=&vc=1

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Come on already; I'm only saying it is essentially dead in overall effect.

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;o=&vc=1

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Also, I'd like to clarify again that I never asserted nor do I believe that racism itself is dead--it's only diminished.

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;o=&vc=1

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Yes I wrote "dead" but not the quote which was attributed to me and which I failed to realize that at the time; those words were put in my mouth, as I showed above. My initial remark had to do with the "race card" not "racism".

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;o=&vc=1

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I generally argue logically, whereas many argue for other reasons. I hope to see the triumph of reason, and wish to learn. Many others however appear to have nothing better to do that try to win "points" (often partisan points) by intellectually dishonest or unsound means. Some examples include putting words in someone's mouth, although that can at times be an honest error.

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;o=&vc=1

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Because I am being unfairly attacked on that basis. My words were misquoted and my meaning was taken the wrong way.

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;o=&vc=1

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I'm not demanding anecdotal evidence,

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;o=&vc=1

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Can you cite an instance of racism you observed which it had some serious effect in the areas you mention?

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;o=&vc=1

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You didn't answer my question AT ALL.

I asked if you personally have observed an incident involving racism where the effects were deleterious; something in the workplace, for instance, or say in a courtroom where you were in attendance. A SPECIFIC PERSONALLY OBSERVED INCIDENT YOU CAN POINT TO AND DESCRIBE.

Since you claim such things are ubiquitous, I'd presume you have observed several such incidents, no? Well I haven't observed ANY in decades. Have you?

Notice I'm not saying such things NEVER occur. I'm saying they are so rare as to be rather negligible on the whole and are likely more than offset by Affirmative Action (in overall effect in the country).

Still waiting for your observed example...

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;o=&vc=1

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I never said any of you were claiming it was ubiquitous.

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;o=&vc=1

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Since you claim such things are ubiquitous

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[DVaut1]

MMMMMM,

Not sure what you think my motivation is, other than to expose what I think has been a (very) disingenuous argument on your behalf; and I could use much stronger words, I think. You did alot of unfair lecturing to many posters about how you were misquoted. Clearly, you weren't. And I think 'unfair lecturing' is just scratching the surface of the kind of posturing you've been doing here in this thread. This post now seems particularly outrageous, in light of the rest of the thread.

Also, I don't think the thread should have been locked, but it's a rather minor point, IMO.

[MMMMMM]

Sorry you see it that way, DVaut1, but I assure you I have not been even slightly disingenuous in this thread. I did get temporarily flummoxed when I took another poster at his word that I had said something which I hadn't, and responded in kind to the mistaken assertion; but I believe I fully explained and clarified everything after that. It also didn't help that one of the earlier points of mine could have been taken in more than one way and that I didn't realize that possibility at the time I posted it.

At any rate the thread is pretty convoluted at this point and I suspect an outsider would have considerable trouble following it all. I still believe you are making a conceptual error in TOTALLY discounting the value of anecdotal evidence or personal experiences, but I'm not willing to belabor the matter further at this point.

[DVaut1]

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I did get temporarily flummoxed when I took another poster at his word that I had said something which I hadn't, and responded in kind to the mistaken assertion; but I believe I fully explained and clarified everything after that

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So, you mistakenly assumed your thesis was "racism is for all practical effects and purposes, more or less dead in today's America"?

I’m having a difficult time believing this, given what a careful poster you are otherwise.