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#151
03-17-2005, 05:48 PM
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Re: Negreanu and Jesus
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] No, I see about a million paintings/sculptures in the capital of Catholicism where the head of said religion resides. [/ QUOTE ] Your hyperbole is showing. I can cite about a million scientists who got it wrong. [/ QUOTE ] Yes you can, but their pictures aren't plastered all over the walls of Cern. And if they were wrong, all it took was another scientist to prove it. The problem is, when we found that the Earth was in fact round, or the Earth did revolve around the sun, or that evolution does exist, religious leaders tried their best to cover it up and went as far as inprisoning people searching for these answers. You will never find a scientist who would imprison or kill someone who proved them wrong. Science is founded in logic and logic alone. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] My point is that there are no specific answers, no book that can tell you specifically what to do. [/ QUOTE ] Is this scientific? You've gathered all the evidence and have proven this theory? [/ QUOTE ] As of now, yes there is no book with specific answers. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] So, when you're healed do you no longer need religion? You're analogy makes no sense. [/ QUOTE ] When I'm healed I always need God. The reason I needed healing in the first place was I rebelled against God. The analogy makes perfect sense as to the point being considered. But any analogy can be pressed past that point. I was answering the crutch charge. Relationship with the Creator goes infinitely beyond being healed and forgiven. It includes a crutch when a crutch is needed, but that's only a small part of the relationship. For Christians it is just the beginning. The rest is love, joy, peace, patience , goodness, self-control and things beautiful beyond imagination. [/ QUOTE ] Love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, self-control and things beautiful beyond imagination existed before Christianity and exist in the absence of Christianity. Honestly, religion has brought many great things to humanity. Christ introduced grace to humanity, a concept that is so unbelievably profound. My point is, is that all of these great things can and should be separated from religion. The reason I believe this is because history shows us that religion can be used as a tool for the ruthless to gain power and promote ignorance. The thought process religion promotes is also ass-backwards. Intelligent design is just a fancy disguised term for creationism. Its just a theory that takes the current evidence and tries as hard as possible to fit it into the obsolete creationist mold. I'm not claiming that there is or is not a God, but I am constantly searching, and that's the point. We should all be constantly searching rather than blindly sticking to tradition. If we don't believe in evolution, we will never evolve. 
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#152
03-17-2005, 05:52 PM
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Re: Negreanu and Jesus
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] No, the point is, he's not "ignorant" to where the particle is. There is absolutely no way of "knowing" where it is. [/ QUOTE ] This is self-contradictory or else language has lost all meaning. [/ QUOTE ] It's not contradictory. In this parlance, being "ignorant" of where it is means that an observer COULD know where it is but does not. In reality, there is NO POSSIBILITY of knowing where it is. There's a clear difference. Do you see why? [I apparently don't know how to use the quote function correctly]
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#153
03-17-2005, 05:56 PM
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Re: Negreanu and Jesus
Well, wait a minute. You're textually correct, but from a historical perspective, religious organizations have been extraordinarily hostile to scientific developments (e.g. heliocentrism) that seem contradictory to scripture. As science has developed, the interpretations of the Bible have thus turned from the literal into the figural.
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#154
03-17-2005, 06:05 PM
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Re: Negreanu and Jesus
[ QUOTE ]
In this parlance, being "ignorant" of where it is means that an observer COULD know where it is but does not. In reality, there is NO POSSIBILITY of knowing where it is. [/ QUOTE ] Please. I mean please. How COULD someone know were it is if there is NO POSSIBILITY? Really. [ QUOTE ] Do you see why? [/ QUOTE ] No. I'll leave others to elaborate. [ QUOTE ] [I apparently don't k! now how to use the quote function correctly] [/ QUOTE ] Before the text put [ followed by quote followed by ] and after do the same except /quote. Click on Quote below and it will put them in your text, then cut and paste as needed.
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#155
03-17-2005, 06:15 PM
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Re: Negreanu and Jesus
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] In this parlance, being "ignorant" of where it is means that an observer COULD know where it is but does not. In reality, there is NO POSSIBILITY of knowing where it is. [/ QUOTE ] Please. I mean please. How COULD someone know were it is if there is NO POSSIBILITY? Really. [/ QUOTE ] That is the essense of the uncertainty principle, that's it! We will NEVER be able to predict the exact velocity and location of any given particle, NEVER. Don't worry, this concept got Einstein wriled up for a while because he too thought that "God doesn't play dice with the Universe." Again, there is far more to life, the universe, our existance, than meets the eyes and some facts are unbelievably counterintuitive, but please try and keep an open mind. Again, I highly recommend "The Fabric of the Cosmos" its a very good and straightforward book about theoretical physics.
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#156
03-17-2005, 06:17 PM
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Re: Negreanu and Jesus
[ QUOTE ]
The problem is, when we found that the Earth was in fact round, or the Earth did revolve around the sun, or! that evolution does exist, religious leaders tried their best to cover it up and went as far as inprisoning people searching for these answers. [/ QUOTE ] Scientists at one time believed the earth was flat, the sun revolved around the earth and that there is no real change in nature. Scientists have done their best to cover up truth on many occasions. Much of scientific truth was discovered by "religious" people. [ QUOTE ] You will never find a scientist who would imprison or kill someone who proved them wrong. Science is founded in logic and logic alone. [/ QUOTE ] I own a bridge in Brooklyn I need to sell. Cheap. Interested? [ QUOTE ] The reason I believe this is because history shows us that religion can be used as a tool for the ruthless to gain power and promote ignorance. [/ QUOTE ] So can science. [ QUOTE ] Intelligent design is just a fancy disguised term for creationism. [/ QUOTE ] Evolution is often just a fancy disguised term for atheism. [ QUOTE ] I'm not claiming that there is or is not a God, but I am constantly searching, and that's the point. We should all be constantly searching rather than blindly sticking to tradition. [/ QUOTE ] Should you continue to search when you've found the truth? Or I should say, been found by the Truth?
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#157
03-17-2005, 06:20 PM
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Re: Negreanu and Jesus
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] In this parlance, being "ignorant" of where it is means that an observer COULD know where it is but does not. In reality, there is NO POSSIBILITY of knowing where it is. [/ QUOTE ] Please. I mean please. How COULD someone know were it is if there is NO POSSIBILITY? Really. [/ QUOTE ] That's why there's no contradiction. Saying that one is ignorant of something is a different statement than saying there's no possibility of knowing it. The language has meaning, and there is no contradiction. [ QUOTE ] No. I'll leave others to elaborate. [/ QUOTE ] touche. [ QUOTE ] Before the text put [ followed by quote followed by ] and after do the same except /quote. Click on Quote below and it will put them in your text, then cut and paste as needed. [/ QUOTE ] thanks.
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#158
03-17-2005, 06:22 PM
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Re: Negreanu and Jesus
[ QUOTE ]
That is the essense of the uncertainty principle, that's it! We will NEVER be able to predict the exact velocity and location of any given particle, NEVER. [/ QUOTE ] How do you know we will never be able to do so? Even if not, how do you know God can't do so? Again, the chance you're talking about is just a euphemism for ignorance. We don't know how to make the calculation, which doesn't mean a calculation is impossible. Given I don't know quantum mechanics, wouldn't it be correct to say that if we knew how our observation of a particle would affect that particle, and if we knew all the other relevant facts and equations, we could make the prediction?
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#159
03-17-2005, 06:26 PM
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Re: Negreanu and Jesus
I haven't studied quantum for a LONG time, but I think it's momentum and position; in any event, you have the right idea. Another excellent text is Coming of Age in the Milky Way, by Timothy Ferris. It's an outstanding account of the history of cosmology, and does a nice job of explaining the Michelson-Morley experiments in a way that highlights their absolutely mind-bending nature. Not the same issue, I know, but it gets one grappling with how truly complex the universe is and how difficult these concepts are.
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