3/6 6m quick little preflop thingy

[stripsqueez]

i didnt bother to read this thread given the title (most days a pre-flop debate just isnt doing it for me) but when it grew this big i figured it must of gotten exciting - sigh

i thought the flop plan was interesting - having an equity edge pre-flop with KQo is one thing but pushing it against the cosmos post flop is another thing - perhaps then this is a time when, to quote nate the great, i should be doing the ironing when the flop is checked to me 4 way ?

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[MicroBob]

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I don't generally find an UTG limp from a 21.5/13.2 scary but his stats combined with his frequency of being involved in hands postflop during that session did.

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I'm jumping into this conversation WAY late (and haven't read the whole thread naturally) but....

I'm not convinced that this his frequency of playing hands within that session really justifies fearing his raise all that much.

21/13 at 6-max is not that TAG imo.

I raise pre-flop...and then hope I get to see whatever it was he had at showdown so that I can take a note: Limps UTG with XX.

If he limp-reraises you, well, you take a note on that too. I'm sure not concerned with that possibility though...but if it does somehow happen I'm pretty confident in what he has.


I am naturally going to swing towards the "it's an obvious raise" camp and that's how I would play it as well.
But I still feel like I learned something and got some ideas from having read through most of this thread.
IOW - while I'm in the 'obvious raise' camp I'm still keeping an open-mind.


Also - This thread went a little bit past just your typical "should I call or raise with such-and-such pre-flop" that some argued is a waste of everyone's time.
There was also some "here's how to proceed with it post-flop if this-or-that happens" type discussion as well as the thread isn't nearly as meaningless as some are assuming.

[ALL1N]

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me: sthief isn't the only one folding pairs at showdown

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lol that was cute

[oreogod]

This is an EASY EASY RA...an EASY..EASy..easEASyyy (oh god being force choked here)...eeeasysy...eeeee(ack oh god whhhhhhy), EASyerr ldkfjdfjdfdlflkdflk (hits keyboard).

(dont be a monkey...think things through, learn from me...or else. I also want to state if I were to ever really get force choked in that situation, Id be masturbating, not typing)

[private joker]

I don't understand what all the fuss is about here.

The decision is simple -- this is a CLEAR... fold. K-high just isn't worth it.







[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[StellarWind]

I can't believe the length of this thread. Easy, easy raise:

1. With two big cards you have a huge equity edge against this lineup. There is no way you can expect to make this up postflop if you just limp.

Really I could just stop now because this is not a close problem. But here are some interesting things to think about.

2. Much has been made of TAG UTG, but he is probably the least of your worries. Usually his limp shows some weak broadway or small pocket pair. Your KQ dominates almost all these hands including the pocket pairs.

I just used "domination" in a nonstandard way but hear me out. You can't win against this big field without pairing your hand. That's a fact of life that is already priced into the odds you are getting on your raise. So what threat is UTG's potential 55? That's right, unless he flops a set he's irrelevant to you. He only has two outs to mess up your chance of winning the hand.

Anyway I hope the picture is clear. This isn't domination in the traditional sense, but nevertheless UTG doesn't do much to lower your chance of eventually winning this pot.

3. For those who expect this UTG to backraise a premium hand:

A) This happens about as often as Halley's comet returns.

B) It may be worth putting two extra bets into a 5-handed preflop to find out the truth. At least you have some padding. Certainly the pain is a lot less than going for extra bets heads-up on the turn with top pair.

4. Often it is raise or be raised. Often when you limp here one of the blinds picks up a good hand and raises the field. Quite often that player would have just called had you raised. Many times limping doesn't save you any money when there are good hands sitting behind you. This is an important general concept that does not get the attention it deserves.

[kiddo]

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If both of the blinds are loose and bad, I probably limp

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if the blinds are calling here with crap, aren't you happy to exploit your equity edge

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Your edge is rarely superhuge here with the TAG limping.

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Not raising blinds because they are loose and bad makes no sense. Our edge against TAG maybe isnt big, but this doesnt change the fact that it is big against the bad blinds coming in with "any2".

[jason_t]

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This thread is the biggest waste of time ever. It should have ended with 1 post containing one word.

Ill give you a hint, it starts with an R.

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After dumping at a 2+2 stud game:

NLSoldier: jason if you end up wiht my 12 bucks plz dont use 6 of it to raise with KQ