God is Love

[HDPM]

Nope, burden is on you to show why an omnipotent being would behave like this and prove why it is love. Biblical quotes don't suffice. This whole argument proves Andy's general point which is that man created God in his image.


Also, what do you say about the edited parts of the Bible?

[udontknowmickey]

Well, Scripture does emphasize that not all will be saved. While it is saddening that the Word of God is not revered as it ought to be, I trust that God is soveign and He will bring about His glory.

[NotReady]

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burden is on you to show why an omnipotent being would behave like this


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Who sets the burden of proof and why?

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Biblical quotes don't suffice.


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They do if it's God's Word.

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Also, what do you say about the edited parts of the Bible?


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What edit?

[HDPM]

Prove it's God's word. The burden of proof logically falls on the person making a claim. You have made a big claim, namely the existence and behavior of an omnipotent being. You have ascribed illogical characteristics to that being. Prove why God acts that way. At least argue it, it might be interesting.

[udontknowmickey]

I'm going to try to answer to your questions in one post (to keep people from having to read multiple threads between the same people).

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Why is every single person wicked? A child is born: she is wicked by definition?


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No, every single person is wicked because of original sin. We are born with the guilt of sin that Adam brought down upon humanity because he acted as our collective head before God. Because of the corruption of original sin, we not only are born with that guilt, but we are born with the inherant deadness that comes with it in our inability to obey His commands. Thus Scripture says that we have sinned from within the womb.

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It seems to me a strange kind of love of his people to kill them all except for one who was apparently a good negotiator.


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Well, none of them were His people. His love for His people (which at that moment was Noah and his family) was still demonstrated in carrying them through judgement (a prefiguring of how He will carry His elect through the end judgement).

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I don't have a deeply worked out theory of justice that I can elucidate here. But apparently god does. He has been responsible, according to the bible, for many deaths. What is his standard? That everyone, by definition is wicked?


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The standard of good and evil and justice flows from the very character of God. When we obey God, we do good, when we do not, we sin. He is our standard for good and wrong. It's actually very simple (in the impossible to obey sort of way).

Once again, somehow even in spite of knowing what justice is, you presume to judge God against this unknown standard. How can you claim to do this without sounding utterly irrational?

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To say that God is subject to his own law is to allow his murders. He makes the law, he exacts the justice. And murder is the correct word for it. Its vigilantism.


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Well, is it murder to exact capital punishment? Not according to the law in some states. Thus it isn't murder. One cannot commit murder according to the law if one completely obeys the law (in it's spirit as well as letter). God is our Law, and He is our definition of justice and righteousness. He exacts vengence for the wrongs carried out against Him, a vengence that He denies us.

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EVERY intent was evil CONTINUALLY?


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More or less. You do have to look at the context. Jesus for example, did not sin. We all, as fallible humans do. Does God use all of our sins for His glory? Yup. Can you honestly say that you've done anything at all that was not born out of some personal selfish gain, even if just to relieve your own concience? All have fallen short. All sin, continuously.

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Perhaps it is difficult to know exactly where the line should be drawn (or if there is such a thing as "necessary" suffering), but can't we agree that killing all the first-born male children of an entire people, because that people's leaders had slaves, is on the unnecessary side? Isn't this the argument of Bin Laden, that all Americans are wicked and thus deserve to die because they are citizens of the great Satan?


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Can we? Even if we do agree, so what? What gives you (or us, for that matter) the ability to judge someone else that may not agree to that? Once again you bring in the arguement that this is what Bin Ladan did. While I'm not saying that Bin Ladan was right in any shape or form, how can we judge him if he presumes he is right?

For me, as a Christian, I hold him up against God's divine Word and see that he has fallen short (just like the rest of us) and know that God will exact vengence. If Bin Ladan dies unrepentant this is eternity in hell, but if he repents (and yes, Christ's offer of salvation is extended to all, even the murderer on the cross next to him), then the punishment will be exacted (and has been exacted) on Christ.

[udontknowmickey]

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Hold on aren't you the one who wants to believe in something that in all probability doesn't exist, why am I the one who has to justify my position.



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When did you establish that it in all probability did not exist? And you have to explain your position in order for it to be understood. How can you convey the idea to another that someone is "right" or "wrong" without knowing what "right" and "wrong" mean and have an agreed upon meaning between the two of you?

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I know the difference between right and wrong because I know what I myself am prepared to accept, I wouldn't go out of my way to cause mental or physical harm to another, probably not even if my life depended on it. It's called empathy, it grows inside people as a result of memories and experiences they have had, and the reaction they had to said experiences.


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So some people, who may not have been as blessed to have similar memories and reactions, do not have as good of a sense of right and wrong. Should we not hold them accountable for their actions because of their backgrounds? What does "mental or physical harm" mean? Is telling the truth harmful at times? Does that mean you lie when telling the truth can be harmful? What if someone was badly hurt and you had to amputate? Is that harm? Would you do that to preserve their life?

Without some objective "right" and "wrong" how can you ever determine if anyone is doing right or wrong?

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Just because we don't fully understand what is going on, that shouldn't mean we need to create a 'god figure' to explain it all away.


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And just because you deny Him doesn't make Him go away.

[NotReady]

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Prove it's God's word. The burden of proof logically falls on the person making a claim.


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I don't accept logic as absolutely authoritative. Since you claim it is, by your logic, you have the burden to prove it is.

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You have ascribed illogical characteristics to that being.


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There are things in Scripture that I can't rationalize according to human logic, though God's right over life and death isn't one of them. Which puts us back to the question why should the logic of an admittedly finite being be authoritative?

[obsidian]

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"Where is the line drawn between 'necessary' or 'unnecessary' suffering?"

Perhaps it is difficult to know exactly where the line should be drawn (or if there is such a thing as "necessary" suffering), but can't we agree that killing all the first-born male children of an entire people, because that people's leaders had slaves, is on the unnecessary side? Isn't this the argument of Bin Laden, that all Americans are wicked and thus deserve to die because they are citizens of the great Satan?

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You would think so wouldn't you?

[udontknowmickey]

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What's wrong with believing the Ten Commandments were his word but not being sure about the rest? Why do you think such an attitude practically guarantees going to Hell?


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How can you believe the Ten Commandments were his word and say you're not sure about everything else unless you have some other source in which to judge the Ten Commandments (and everything else) against to check for authenticity. And what about that other source? Is it itself infallible and self-verifying (because if it isn't and needed something else to verify we could apply the questions to that source). Where ultimately does the judgement of what is God's Word and what is not come from? Eventually you have to hit something that is self-verifying (and infallible). If you end up going in circles you have no assurance of anything.

[udontknowmickey]

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The only big problem I have with the above post are the three words "and His Word". I'll let others elaborate.


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I kind of too, because it seems to imply that God is seperate from His Word, when in reality obeying His Word and obeying God is one and the same.

But I suspect you have a different issue. Do explain how if we do not have His Word we are to know what God says?