Strangely Played Hand in 10K at Harrahs

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]

2. Late position players were raising limpers fairly often.



[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty germane to the discussion. Maybe that is implied by being a tough table, but I would not have assumed it with the stack to blind ratio so high.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
Was it Sklansky? Just checkin....Congrats, and I think you are talking this folding equity entirely too far.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it wasn't him. I know I am a little provocative but it it wasn't without a reason. Many players (not you) seem to want to learn from conventional pros and copy their strategy. I think that a more fruitful approach is to search for the strategy that beats conventional wisdom (Rock, Scissors, Paper) and in this perspective this whole thread is senseless.

To be able to lay down good preflop hands on the flop seems to have become some kind of mantra among good players and I just wanted to point out that it can be exploited if done cleverly and that Sklansky maybe was victim to this.

[TheShootah]

I wouldn't say provocative...I would tweak that word into, outrageous and probably wrong! I hate to break it to you but if you have read TOP, your "rock papers scissors" idea is covered in great detail. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] And this mantra you speak of is kind of right. I would modify it to say that the pros make good laydowns, and then people who think they are good try it and lose money. I like how you speak like you are the pro, criticizing pros for their decisions.

[CieloAzor]

I don't hate the limp, but I would hardly ever do it myself because:

1) I raise a lot of hands.
2) I don't want 6 opponents seeing the flop with me.
3) I feel confident that I can recognize when an opponent has cracked the aces.

Still, the value of aces is fairly low at this stage in the tournament, and mixing up your play is a plus.

I think the fold on the flop was premature. Harman's certainly not on a stone cold bluff, but I doubt she's got the aces beat at this point. She could have a straight draw, a flush draw, a pair, a pair and a draw, or less. She's aggressive enough to bet any pair here, knowing that she has fold equity, and the chance to win a big pot if the turn improves her to two pair or trips. I likely call the flop and then bet/raise her on the turn when a diamond doesn't hit. In fact, I bet a diamond if she checks it. If I get raised or re-reraised at this point, I'll let her take it down, but I'll make sure it costs her a lot of a chips to pop me back. If I get a call, then I hope for a cheap showdown. If the board pairs 4s or pairs on the turn and river, then I value bet the river.

Personally, I'd rather my opponents were the ones with aces in the early going. I love calling their raises with pocket pairs and then busting them with a set on a ragged flop. Suited connectors work too but I often have to pay for a turn card. They work better if you just flop trips because the board is somehow less intimidating with a pair of sixes than it is with three suited cards. It seems the faster you play it, the less they'll believe you!

With deep stacks, I'd say I win 10-15 big pots against big pairs for every 1 I lose. Most people give themselves away from the first raise.

[barry111]

[ QUOTE ]
i've only been posting a short time, but i can already see why people get flamed...the "i'd play it the same" post by someone who just joined is fairly annoying.

[/ QUOTE ]
1. your the one who should be flamed
2. your the one who just joined
3. pbass has been registered since 10/31/02 10:35 PM
4. look before you leap [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
holla bro!

[Vince Lepore]

[ QUOTE ]
2. Late position players were raising limpers fairly often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Had you said this before I may have given you more credit for your limp.

Vince

[Vince Lepore]

[ QUOTE ]
And Vince, you probably want to read the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

And lastchance, you "probably" should read Dan Harrington's book, a book Sklansky reviewed before it was published. Then tell me what Harrington says about limping with Aces after someone else has entered the pot. Of course I assume that yyou believe that Sklansky is correct so maybe you should just continue to live in your fantasy world. By the Way in Super System by Brunson he also makes a comment about how to play Aces after a limper. Hint: He doesn't agree with Sklansky. But what in the world do these two guys know about tournament poker.

Vince

[lastchance]

Obviously, I am far inferior to Dan Harrington and Doyle Brunson. However, when Paul Phillips and David Sklansky say this is not a horrible way to play Aces, I believe them.

And no, I haven't read Dan Harrington's book (dammit).

Also, this thread was incredibly interesting. You should have read it. :P At least I have a reason for not reading Harrington on Hold'em.

[Vince Lepore]

I meant to say that by raising it was also possible to win a big pot, especially if one gets reraised preflop. One also must take into account that a "big' pot is a relative term. It is relative to what one should expect given the blind structure not necessarily the stack sizes orf the other playres when compared with yours.

Vince

[Vince Lepore]

[ QUOTE ]
I would sometimes raise with AA here, and sometimes I wouldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sklansky described a specific situation here. Tough table - two early limpers. No other information was given. "Sometimes raise...sometimes I wouldnt"... Are we to assume that a top tournanment pro like yourself decides on a whim whether to raise or not?

Vince