Why do Jews Reject Jesus - Part 2

[Peter666]

Because heresy was seen as a crime that was much worse than any sort of evil on earth. Those who were heretics, or of more concern to the State, those who tried to propagate their heresy, were considered the ulitmate terrorists, because they could lead one to eternal damnation and perpetual torture.

Also, the Spanish Kingdom at the time was on unstable ground. It had recently finished its victory over the Muslims, and any sort of internal disunity could easily cause the new State to collapse.

Besides, torture was seen as a punishment for many sort of crimes at the time, not just heresy. Although I must say the claims of torture were greatly exagerrated, and very few people ever died as a result of the Inquisition.

As far as terrorists go, torture away! Americans are currently doing this through their Arab allies instead of directly so they do not start a ruckus in the media.

[bossJJ]

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In Deuteronomy 5:19-21, the bible says that all the people heard God speak. This was when Moses went up to receive the ten commandments. They heard his voice, but did not see him. This was after the Jews were freed from slavery in Egypt.

The burning bush was a separate incident, which only Moses saw. That was before Moses went back to Egypt to free the people.

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And this story was written down how long after it supposedly happenned?

PairTheBoard

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No, it was written down soon afterwards.

How can a national revelation be faked?

Why don't christians believe what the bible says?

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I think there is a great deal of historical scholarship that disagrees with your assertion about when it was written down.

You are out of step with historical scholarship on two counts. One with your anti-christian claims denying the historical Jesus, and Two with your Pro-Jewish claims as to when Jewish Oral traditions were written down. I think you know you are out of step with historical scholarship on both these points but insist on them anyway. You are not being honest about what objective historical analysis has found. This tells me you are not genuine with your statements and amount to little more than a Propagandist.

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The history of Moses, and the Jews receiving the Torah, are both recorded in the written Torah. I wasn't discussing the Oral Torah.

As to my not believing in a historical Jesus, it is you guys who are out of touch with all the "historical scholarship" that agrees with me. The fact that it's a minority position doesn't mean it's wrong, as you seem to imply. No one has been able to prove he existed, and there is if fact no credible evidence of his existence.

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There's no point in berating me for being inconsistent in which part of the Bible I believe in because I believe in none of it the way you or notready does. I see it as a record of the experience people have had through the ages with what they called god. It's all open to objective historical analysis and literary criticism. It's up to the reader to decide how and if he wants to incorporate the Biblically recorded experiences in his own spiritual life.

PairTheBoard

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People can believe whatever they want. It's just foolish to claim to believe in the Hebrew bible while actually denying everything that it says. Sure, things can be interpreted in various ways, but when you "interpret" everything to mean the exact opposite of what it says, it gets a little ridiculous.

[bossJJ]

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No, you sound ridiculous because you have completely missed the point. God did not reveal the mystery of the Trinity until after the Messiah came. It does not affect the belief of one God. It just adds to its understanding. God can arbitrarily reveal what He wants, when He wants, whenever He wants to Whomever He wants. You can't stop Him.

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No, you missed the point, which was that none of your beliefs are from God. God told us that He is one and He doesn't change. That wasn't God revealing anything to you; it was a bunch of crap from pagan religions. If it contradicts the Hebrew bible, it's wrong. Illiterate pagans believed it because they had no idea what the Hebrew bible really said about God. Stupid Christians continue to believe this crap because they have deluded themselves into believing that this crap is from God. Like your pagan ancestors, you have no real understanding of God or the Hebrew bible.

[bossJJ]

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"Your false beliefs aren't from God." You cannot prove that.

"You are simply unable to accept any evidence that contradicts your beliefs (and yes, the Hebrew bible should be evidence for Christians)."

Your subjective interpretation of evidence is no evidence at all.

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Our interpretations are quite reasonable, being based on what the bible actually says. For example, the bible explicitly states that God is one, that He is not a man, and that He will not change. It clearly states in several places that the Torah is to be observed forever, and not changed. God clearly told us to go to our own sages for questions of interpretation, and He also explicitly stated not to follow people like Jesus. Also, several verses say that prayer, repentance and charity atone for sin, and there are many examples of those whose sins were atoned for without bringing a blood sacrifice. I have listed all the relevant verses several times in other threads.

The Christian "interpretations," otoh, somehow interpret all these verses to mean the exact opposite of what they actually say. They are no better than Muslim or Mormom interpretations. They are all false religions that just mistakenly believe that they have some new "truth" from God. You still haven't given any reason why I should believe your delusions over those of the Muslims or Mormons.

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You already saw below how different Jewish sects disagree on what they believe to begin with. You funny guys cannot come to definite conclusions about anything within your religion, let alone outside of it.

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With statements such as this, you just demonstrate what a moron you are. There is actually much more agreement within Judaism than within Christianity, with its thousands of different sects and denominations. Yes, I know you believe that only your denomination is correct, but that's what they all say, and that's not evidence.

[bossJJ]

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"What evidence? All you have is the gt, and you claim that your beliefs are from God. None of that is evidence."

You dumb hypocrite, all you have is the Torah, and that is no evidence at all. Again by attacking Christianity, you have undermined your own pathetic faith.

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You dumb moron, you still just don't get it. Let me try to explain it one more time: Jews don't believe in the gt. Therefore, if it contradicts the Hebrew bible, it show that only Christianity is false. So if the Hebrew bible is true, then the gt is false. If the Hebrew bible is false, then Christianity is still false.

I have already acknowledged that one can't prove that the Hebrew bible is true. So I'm not being a hypocrite at all. You're just a moron and a brainwashed Christian who doesn't understand plain English.I'm just pointing out why it doesn't make any sense to claim that you believe in both the Hebrew bible and the gt, because they contradict each other on just about every theological point. If one believes in the Hebrew bible, it's logical to reject Christianity for the same reasons that we reject all other religons: None of them are really from God.

You still haven't been able to refute any of my points. All you have is your delusions that your beliefs are from God. Muslims and Mormons also believe that their believs are from God, but we have no good reason to believe any of you. If God does lie and change His mind, then maybe Islam or Mormonism is now actually the correct religion to follow.

[bossJJ]

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1. Jesus is God, He cannot command people not to follow Himself. That would be contradictory.

2. I don't know from where or how you have interpreted this. I need an exact quote.

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Of course God didn't say not to follow Him, you moron. However, he did say not to follow people like Jesus and the gt authors. I've discussed this in the other thread, but you obviously have a problem retaining information. You are also obviously unfamiliar with the Hebrew bible, or you wouldn't have been dumb enough to believe the gt in the first place.

Here's a copy of my post from the other thread:

In several places in the Hebrew bible God tells us NOT to follow Jesus or Christianity:

First, God tells us (Jews) explicitly not to follow any other religion (Dt 6:12-15, 13:1-12, Ps 81:8-9).

Second, the bible says that when there is a dispute about the law, we are to go to our own sages (rabbis, levitic priests and judges -Dt 17:8-13). In the first century they were the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin (kind of like a high court. None of them accepted Jesus as the messiah. Therefore, since we must follow their decisions, we are commanded to reject Jesus. In any case, Jesus failed at EVERYTHING that the real messiah will accomplish. This is what will happen when the real messiah comes:
www.outreachjudaism.org/sin.html

Third, the bible says that if someone claims to be a prophet, and he makes a prediction which doesn’t come true, then he is a false prophet and we must not follow him (Dt 18:22). Jesus made at least three predictions, which didn’t come true:

1.) He falsely predicted that he would be in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights (Matthew 12:40). All four gospels agree that he was in the tomb for only 2 nights (one of the few details that they actually agree on). They all say that he was crucified on Friday (Mt 27:62, Mk 15:43, Lk 23:54, Jn 19:42) and resurrected on Sunday (Mt 28:1, Mk 16:2, Lk 24:1, Jn 20:1). More about this:
http://www.outreachjudaism.org/resurrection.html

2.) He falsely predicted that some of his listeners would still be alive when he came back, when many messianic prophecies would come true, establishing the “kingdom of God” (Mark 9:1, 13:30).

3.) He said that not a single stone of the Temple would be left standing (Mt 24:1-2), but in fact the western wall of the Temple is still standing today

Therefore, Jesus was a false prophet, and we must not follow him. To do so would be to disobey God.

Fourth, the bible says that even if a prophet predicts something that comes true, or produces a miracle, but then he tells us not to follow the Torah, or to follow other gods, we are not to follow him (Dt 13:2-6). In fact, he should be put to death (Dt 13:6). False religions can apparently have real miracles, but that doesn’t mean that the religion is true. We are to always follow God’s Torah, and not change it, even after the real messiah comes. Therefore, we must reject the entire gt (Dt 4:2). In the gospels, Jesus told his followers to disobey the laws of honoring parents, Sabbath observance and the kosher food laws. He also encouraged castration (Mt 19:12) and self-mutilation (Mt 9:43, 45, Mt 18:8), told a man not to bury his father, and allowed his disciples to steal grain. Then, otoh, he added to the law by prohibiting divorce and claiming that it is adultery even if a man just looks at a woman lustfully. Other gt verses also tell the Jews not to follow Torah Law (Acts 10:9-14, Gal 5:2-3, 6, Rom 10:4). Therefore, we must not follow Jesus or Christianity, because God has commanded us not to.

God commanded us NOT to follow gods that our "fathers did not know" (Dt 13:6) because in Torah Judaism, we have the perfect, complete religion for all time. Our fathers did NOT know Jesus. Therefore, we must NOT follow him.

God commanded us NOT to follow foreign gods, the gods of other peoples, of the peoples around us (Dt. 6:14). Well, the people around us are Christians who worship Jesus. Therefore, we must NOT follow Jesus.

God commanded us NOT to follow anyone who tells us not to follow His Torah or to follow other gods (Dt 13:2). Jesus told us not to follow Torah. Therefore, we must NOT follow Jesus.

God commanded us NOT to follow any "prophet" whose prediction doesn't come true (Dt 18:22). Jesus made predictions that didn't come true. Therefore, we must NOT follow him.

There is absolutely no doubt that WE MUST NOT FOLLOW JESUS.

[bossJJ]

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3. Because many of the Jews at the time mistakenly interpreted the Torah, and perverted its meaning. That's why Jesus was so harsh to the Pharisees and their minions. Of course, many Jews also had the correct interpretation, and became Christians after Jesus' Resurrection.

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Wrong. The Pharisees then, and Jews now, just continued to follow Torah as we always have. There's no evidence that any Pharisees ever heard of or met Jesus. However, they rightly rejected the gt and Pauls's message, because it's just pagan garbage that contradicts everything God told us in the gt. Nor is there any evidence of Jews converting to Christianity after Jesus' alleged resurrection. The story wasn't made up until several years after it allegedly happened, when Paul started spreading it around. Lots of pagans converted because it was similar to other pagan gods and religions.

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4. Jesus perfectly fulfilled all the Messianic Prophecies. See #3

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LOL! Did Jesus rebuilt the Temple? Did he rule as king of Israel? Did he bring peace to Israel and the world? Is there a world-wide knowledge of God, with all Jews following Torah? Were all the dead resurrected? Did all the Jews return to Israel? Anyone who thinks Jesus fulfilled any of the messianic prophecies obviously has no understanding of what the real messiah will be and do. And the bible does not that the messiah will be resurrected from the dead. It does not say that believing in some virgin-born mangod will atone for sins. It does not say that the real messiah will replace the Torah or the Temple. All the Christian beliefs are from paganism, not the bible.

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5. I don't think God lied in the Hebrew Bible. I think there were wrong interpretations of the Hebrew Bible by various Jews that resulted in different sects which we still see present today. As shown before, the whole fact that you allow opinions to hold sway on doctrinal matters mean that you have allowed the Hebrew Bible to be open to interpretation. Thus, the Jews in the world today have screwed up the interpretations and missed the Messiah when He came. Suckers.

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LOL! It is you who is the sucker and a brainwashed moron. All you keep doing is citing your pagan beliefs, but you can't give any reason why anyone should believe in them. You believe in a "messiah" who didn't fulfill a single messianic prophecy! What a loser! Assuming he even existed, Jesus was a complete loser in the real world that no one from his alleged lifetime even noticed. He did the exact opposite of what the real messiah will do. He is a god and messiah only in the minds of delusional, pathetic Christians.

[vulturesrow]

I dont have much time right now to respond to your cut and paste screeds, but I will note that your sinking to the level of calling someone a "dumb moron" is not exactly a top shelf debating tactic. In fact it is generally used by people are being put on the defensive..maybe there is more truth to Peter's post than you are letting on.

[bossJJ]

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"Lots of Catholic priests don't agree with everything that's official doctrine; they just aren't free to express their opinion."

Anybody who disagrees with one detail of De Fide doctrine is a heretic. It does not matter whether they are priests or what not.

You make the claim that Christians are known to have historically persecuted people. Give me one single example from history.

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So you are also quite ignorant about your own history. I'm not surprised.

Victims of the Christian Faith

A River of Blood

Torture: A Heretic's Final Journey

Prominant Christians

Christian Terror

The Historical Record

The Dark Side of Christian History

[bossJJ]

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I dont have much time right now to respond to your cut and paste screeds, but I will note that your sinking to the level of calling someone a "dumb moron" is not exactly a top shelf debating tactic. In fact it is generally used by people are being put on the defensive..maybe there is more truth to Peter's post than you are letting on.

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If someone calls me names first, I'll give it right back to them. I'm also giving valid reasons for all of my positions, while Peter hasn't been able to refute any of my points. He just keeps repeating his crap, claiming that God told him his beliefs are correct. He hasn't even understood most of my points.