Simple question with simple answer.

[DeeJ]

Surely this ain't obvious or simple. Stats from half-a-million hands show that 77 has an EV of +0.16 BB, 44 has an EV of -0.07 BB. For what it's worth, 66 +0.07BB and 55 +0.02BB. I would imagine the majority of pots are multiway preflop...

The stats come from a total of 122 million hands dealt at real money tables. This leaves me with the choice of

a) most players are rubbish and can't extract enough value from 44 and/or overplay 77
b) you're wrong.

Even if a) is true I think they still know how to win with a set, they are more not less likely to be playing 44 and it still doesn't mean 44 ~= 77 for a reasonable or good player.

So I'm inclined to b) especially as dynastic gods are on my side [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

PS I have spent money on your excellent books but it doesn't say 44 ranks up there with 77 [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[TwoNiner]

[ QUOTE ]
I must be having trouble with my English. My original point is absolutely unrelated to whether or when two fours could actually be preferable to two sevens. It was only related to the fact that THREE fours often is in typical games.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the MAIN reason fours are at least as good?

[/ QUOTE ]

You say here 44 is at least as good as 77, but then focus on the overvalued factor which made you incorrectly think so.

Combining pokertracker databases should show 77>44 after say 4 limpers, and set 777>444 in these same situations. The idea that people are likely to be holding and hitting 5,6,7 on the flop which will give you enough extra action to cancel out the value of 77 over 44 is simply wrong. Same goes for set 7's vs set 4's

If you would have worded the question as, What's the most significant advantage 44 has over 77 after several limpers, even though 77 is obviously the superior hand, then you probably have a point.

[astroglide]

please see this thread for a continuing discussion in which i published a result of a large simulation for 77 vs 44. any public comments (approving or disapproving) are appreciated, and comments by those who may be more deeply familiar with TTH would be greatly appreciated.

statistics from my personal database as well and other discussion of the 77/44 subject can be found in this (apparently equally controversial) thread.