Why do people love israel so much??

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I'm saying that the LAWS in many Arab/Muslim countries are structured to deny equal civil rights to non-Muslims--and in many cases egregiously so. THAT'S what it boils down to.

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If THAT's what it boils down to, then I'm not sure why you're interested in claiming that 1) Zionism was a movement borne out of trying to escape Arab oppression, as that's not true according to anything I've read and

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I've already said that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I'm NOT interested in claiming that. I may have misspoken. That wasn't my intended thrust and it's not a central point to my argument.

My overall point was that the creation of Israel was justifiable due in part to various oppressions against the Jews--committed by Europeans, Russians and Arabs. If I'm wrong in thinking it was "fueled" in part by Arab oppressions, as well as European and Russian oppressions, well thanks for the correction, but that is largely besides my point, as I've already stated. The state of Israel was a justifiable creation in part due to all of those oppressions. That's my point. Clearer at last, I hope?

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2) neither is true that all Arab countries discriminate against Jews, or that Israel necessarily respects human rights more than Arab countries; surely, they do respect human rights more than some Arab countries - and in my estimation, they respect human rights less than some Arab countries. The world isn't easily explained through broad generalizations or over-simplifications. The world is a complicated place. I think you should respect some of that complexity.

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It wasn't intended as an absolute or blanket statement without any exceptions, but it is overwhelmingly true in aggregate that the laws in many or most Arab/Muslim countries do not grant equal legal status to non-Muslims. That's very serious. Not only are things like non-Muslim religious fredoms curtailed, but the legal codes contain provisions for greater punishments to be meted out to non-Miuslims for civil and criminal infractions of many kinds; and in some cases do not punish Muslims for crimes against infidels, to nearly the extent that crimes by infidels committed against Muslims are punished. Muslim witenesses in court are LEGALLLY accorded more weight than non-Muslim witnesses. Etc. It's really scary stuff if you delve into it.

Contrast this to Israel, where Arabs possess civil rights approximately in line with first-world standards. Apparently you don't know these things to be true and therefore find the statement offensive somehow. But it's much more true than you would guess. Check out www.hrw.org if you don't mind doing some serious on-site searching. Human Rights Watch is a valuable resource, and is probably where I first found the legal codes of various Middle Eastern countries, which I posted previously.

[Darryl_P]

Philosophically speaking, if a group of people owns a particular plot of land, shouldn't they have the right to pick and choose who is allowed to enter it on any basis they want?

As a landowner myself I certainly expect to have such a right regarding my own property. Otherwise I would question whether or not I really owned the property. Why is it any different for a group of people?

[twowords]

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My overall point was that the creation of Israel was justifiable due in part to various oppressions against the Jews--committed by Europeans, Russians and Arabs. If I'm wrong in thinking it was "fueled" in part by Arab oppressions, as well as European and Russian oppressions, well thanks for the correction, but that is largely besides my point, as I've already stated. The state of Israel was a justifiable creation in part due to all of those oppressions. That's my point. Clearer at last, I hope?


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Europe committed unspeakable atrocities against them, so because of that the Zionists were justified in immigrating in huge numbers to Palestine against the will of the inhabitants AND taking land from the peoples that were promised a state of Palestine, again against the will of the same people. How can you endorse this argument?

PS. The attrocities Redlight is refering to are from early AD around the time of the Crusades. Like around the time Christians sacked Jerusalem and sluaghered every man, woman, and child in the city walls (yes I saw Kingdom of Heaven). Over the last 1000 years, Jews did live in relative harmony with Arabs in the Arab dominated Middle East.

[andyfox]

Any thread that coins the word dhimmitude is worth its weight in gold. I also just noticed a post on one of the other forums where somebody said he was in "agreeance" with somebody else. I like that word too.

The only points I'm trying to make are:

-Antisemitism in Muslim/Arab states had absolutely zero to do with the Zionist movement and the formation of the state of Israel.

-Jews fared much, much better under Islam than they did under Christianity. Historians of all political stripes who have studied this have all come to this same conclusion.

I agree with you that there is no question that the situation for religious minorities in many/most Arab/Islam states is far worse than it is for Muslims in Israel.

OK?

[AngryCola]

Here's an update for you, Andy.

Threaded mode is sorting the most recent posts to the top. If they are replies to another post, the entire tree gets moved up, too.

BUT!

The tree will only bump up so far. This is because the OP of that tree is older than the OP of another tree.

It's a bit confusing, but look at it for a bit and you'll see what I'm trying to describe.

Next, thread subjects now take you to the most recent unread post in the thread when viewing in threaded mode. This is the same as the pre-upgrade flat mode default. They may change the threaded mode subject setting to the way it was before (subject always links to OP), but it shouldn't be a big deal if it stays this way. It will just take some getting used to.

Unread posts in threads are are no longer displayed in bold when viewing in threaded mode. The little folder icons are not a good substitute for this, and I suspect there is a setting which needs to be changed in the software to go back to the 'bolded unread posts' style we were all so familiar with. This is something Chuck and Mat are aware of, so I anticpate something will be done about it within a week or so if it's possible to change.

Hopefully this clears up some of your confusion.

[bobman0330]

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Any thread that coins the word dhimmitude is worth its weight in gold. I also just noticed a post on one of the other forums where somebody said he was in "agreeance" with somebody else. I like that word too.


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"Dhimmitude" gets a quarter-million Google hits. Then again, "agreeance" probably does too, so take that for what it's worth.

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Europe committed unspeakable atrocities against them, so because of that the Zionists were justified in immigrating in huge numbers to Palestine against the will of the inhabitants AND taking land from the peoples that were promised a state of Palestine, again against the will of the same people. How can you endorse this argument?


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Because:

1) The Jews had a long shared history of that land, along with certain Arab inhabitants

2) The Jews were persecuted in Europe and Russia, and oppressed by Arab laws and customs in the Middle East

3) Therefore, the Jews could use a haven or safe sanctuary of their own

4) The area in question is only about 1/900 of the total Arab land mass

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OK Andy.

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Europe committed unspeakable atrocities against them, so because of that the Zionists were justified in immigrating in huge numbers to Palestine against the will of the inhabitants AND taking land from the peoples that were promised a state of Palestine, again against the will of the same people. How can you endorse this argument?


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Because:

1) The Jews had a long shared history of that land, along with certain Arab inhabitants


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Thousands of years ago. At the turn of the 20th Century, like 5,000 Jews lived in all of Palestine.
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2) The Jews were persecuted in Europe and Russia, and oppressed by Arab laws and customs in the Middle East

3) Therefore, the Jews could use a haven or safe sanctuary of their own

4) The area in question is only about 1/900 of the total Arab land mass

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Haha are 2 and 3 really seperate points? As for 4, many have pointed out that the Arab states are connected intimately by culture but certainly not close to being uniform. Also, Jerusalem and some of the most fertile and strategically valuable land is in that 1/900. Of course, Israel saw it your way. Either way it appears we've reached an impasse since these points aren't even CLOSE to justifying the creation of Israel for me, EVEN without knowing of the horrors it would lead to. We've laid out the facts, so anyone reading can make the call.

As it turned out, the creation of Israel completely [censored] up the Middle East, resulted in millions of causualties and millions of refugees, and finally played a large role in fostering an Arab extremist movement and Islamic terrorism. Meanwhile, many Palestinians still live under occupation.

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Either way it appears we've reached an impasse since these points aren't even CLOSE to justifying the creation of Israel for me, EVEN without knowing of the horrors it would lead to. We've laid out the facts, so anyone reading can make the call.

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Impasse agreed upon.

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As it turned out, the creation of Israel completely [censored] up the Middle East, resulted in millions of causualties and millions of refugees, and finally played a large role in fostering an Arab extremist movement and Islamic terrorism. Meanwhile, many Palestinians still live under occupation.

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Actually, the Middle East has been f'd up for hundreds of years. Yes, the creation of Israel created some new problems, and a focal point for hatreds; but many of those hatreds had long seethed below the surface anyway and had occasionally boiled over in riots against the Jews.

Also, maybe I consider the worse-than-Jim-Crow-laws, which are so prevalent in the Middle East, as more of an affront than you do. I think the Muslims and Arabs have no right especially in modern times to have those laws on the books and to enforce them. So maybe I look at it something like: if they're going to be so oppressive against non-Muslims in their countries, and especially against Jews, and refuse to reform, well then they deserve to lose a tiny sliver of land to those to whom they so oppress and deny civil rights. This isn't ancient times anymore. Some cultures need to get with the program, and cut out the institutionalized double-standard bullshit. And yes I find such institutionalized double-standards to be highly offensive, both personally and from a perspective of the entire human race.

I agree it's not fair that a few hundred thousand Palestinians were uprooted some 60 years ago, but it wouldn't have been fair to not grant the Jews a tiny sanctuary either. No perfect solution existed no matter how you slice it. As for the Palestinians today whose grandfathers were once displaced, I would strongly suggest they emulate the Boat People and hie themselves to a better place, to start new and better lives--that's what I would do in their shoes, anyway: see you later adios and ciao baby.