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#122
07-08-2005, 11:19 AM
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Re: I used to respect you David \"bitter\" Sklansky
[ QUOTE ]
If your father believes that your lack of faith in Jesus Christ will earn you an eternity of pain and suffering in hell after you die, and he does not spend his every waking moment attempting to convince you of the truth of his beliefs, then your father does not love you very much. [/ QUOTE ] This is very superficial. If you present your case to someone who flatly rejects it and then refuses to listen to you any further on the subject it isn't love to continue to browbeat him. Your only recouse at that point is demonstration through one's life and prayer. 
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#123
07-08-2005, 11:57 AM
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Re: Why Do Jews Reject Jesus?
[ QUOTE ]
These verses aren’t being taken out of context, as there are no surrounding verses that give a contrasting view or portray Jews in a favorable light. [/ QUOTE ] All of these verses are taken woefully out of context. Not one of them addresses Israel or makes a comment on Jews in general. There are all directed toward specific people, generally specific Scribes and Pharisees who are opposing Jesus, even trying to kill him. The Old Testatment is just as critical of Jews as the New, and for the same reason. It doesn't preach anti-semitism, but it chides God's chosen people for their sin and unfaithfulness. That is what all the texts you cite are saying - not one of them is anti-semitic. There are New Testament verses that praise Jews in general or show a loving, favorable attitude towards them. Luke 19 41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, 42saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! Matthew 23 13"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. Then to the same people he says: 37"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Paul's "hatred" of the Jews: Romans 9 1I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. There is simply no statement in the New Testament that vilifies Jews because of their race or nationality. The religious criticisms have to do with those who are specifically hypocritical or otherwise transgress God's laws. Gentiles are just as criticized, if not more so, as Jews therefore you would have to say the New Testament is anti-Gentile. [ QUOTE ] If there was a book that said that Blacks are liars, thieves, hypocrites, murderers, hostile, spiritually blind sons of the devil and enemies of God, and that accused them of many crimes that they didn’t commit, could you deny that it was a racist book? Could that book be from God? [/ QUOTE ] The New Testamet doesn't say that Jews as a race are thieves, etc. Reading your posts one gets the feeling that you want Christians to be anti-Semitic as that relieves you have to seriously consider the claims of Christ.
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#124
07-08-2005, 12:52 PM
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About Time Not Ready!
Where have you BEEN? I was legitimately getting worried about you. Vultures Row has been pretty much holding the fort without you but it wasn't a fair fight.
Meanwhile though, you need to address the earlier issues. This anti-semitic issue has nothing to do with anything. Don't just pick and choose which posts to refute based on the ease of your rebuttal.
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#126
07-08-2005, 01:16 PM
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Re: Why Do Jews Reject Jesus?
"How can we be so sure that the Torah is from God? And that the gt, Koran, and book of Mormon are not? Because God appeared to the ENTIRE JEWISH NATION (about 2-3 million people) when He gave the Torah to Moses on Mount Sinai (Dt 5:19). Judaism is the ONLY religion in the entire world that was started by a national revelation from God. Only God, speaking to an entire nation could reveal a true religion. And once God speaks, He doesn’t “change His mind,” or revise the truths He proclaimed as absolute and eternal.
All other religions, including Christianity, are man-made. They started when some person claimed to have received a personal revelation from G-d. (In the case of Christianity, this person was Paul, not Jesus.)" Now we are getting somewhere. This is the answer I was looking for. Quoting those silly passages from the bible means nothing without this. I figured there was some sort of logical reason. Basically your saying that the atheist type arguments against Jesus's divinity are reasonable but they don't work as applied to the Jewish religion because of the supposed fact that so many people heard from God at once. OK. Actually the mannah from heaven story is an even better example. On the surface it seems that that the original Jewish religion is less of an underdog than Christianity based on these arguments. Of course even Christians would agree with that since Judaism is a prerequitite. Anyway, can't think too much about this right now. Got 8 million dollars to try and win.
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#128
07-08-2005, 03:07 PM
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Re: Why Do Jews Reject Jesus?
Hi MM,
Interesting stuff there but it is probably totally out of context. You can't reduce to soundbites what occurred to Judaism in the time of Jesus. The re-establishment of Israel as a country seems to have been accomplished in '49 after close to 2000 years. The rest of the prophecies should be carefully screened though. Who gave them, when were they given, who accepted them, were they changed in the transmission, what was their context, etc. Also from a mathematical “statistical or probability” viewpoint; it can be surmised that that Jesus did meet the requirements. Why? The first Christians were essentially all Jews (as you know Paul helped change this trend). Think about this -- what was the Jewish population in the time of Jesus; and what is it today – maybe 15 to 20 to 25 million worldwide. (Of course if it was not for Hitler it would be much more.) Today’s Christian population is on the order of a billion. It is possible that converts from Judaism to Christian accounts for 100 or more million Christians (who knows). But on some kind of numerical religious probability distribution (say Jewish versus Jewish converts to Christian); the Jewish portion is probably at most a 2.5 sigma tail quantity on a probability distribution. This is almost a mathematical residual. GK
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#129
07-08-2005, 03:22 PM
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Re: Why Do Jews Reject Jesus?
[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, can't think too much about this right now. Got 8 million dollars to try and win. [/ QUOTE ] good luck David
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#130
07-08-2005, 03:45 PM
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Re: Why Do Jews Reject Jesus?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I don't think the non-existent jesus had any disiples[sic]. [/ QUOTE ] I have seen you make reference to this point before. The fact is that most historical scholars acknowledge the historical existence of the man named Jesus. This debate died a long time ago and these days the debate is over the signifigance of His life, not whether He actually existed or not. [/ QUOTE ] The debate is not as dead as you seem to think. Yes, my view is in the minority but that doesn't mean it's wrong. With the huge numbers of Christians, it's inevitably a minority view, much smaller than would be the case if everybody would examine the position objectively. The fact is that no one during jesus' alleged lifetime even noticed him. We have nothing written about from that time. Yet, we should, if he really did all the things the Christians claim. The greek testament was written several decades after jesus’ death, and all the references to him (outside of the gt) were written even later. They just say something about how there is a group called the "Christians" who follow someone who was called "Jesus" or "the christ." These writers are just assuming that he must have existed, because the Christians follow him. Philo, otoh, WAS a contemporary of jesus. He wrote extensively, in a very detailed manner, about Israel in the time of Jesus. Although he discusses Herod, Pilate and (briefly) John the Baptist, he never even mentions jesus. As discussed in the links below, there were other Jewish, Greek and Roman writers and historians who also wrote about Israel during jesus' alleged lifetime, and none of them mention him. If any of the extraordinary events of the gt had really happened, then somebody else would have mentioned them. These include: the earthquake in Jerusalem that was so strong that the graves opened up and many dead people wandered around the city, the three hours of darkness in the middle of the day when jesus allegedly died, the murder of all the baby boys in the Bethlehem area, and the Roman census that supposedly required everyone to return to the place of his birth. And of course, like all the popular pagan gods of the time, jesus was "resurrected" from the dead. Paul (1 Cor 15:6) claims that more than 500 people saw jesus after his death. This is obviously a lie. If this was true, we would have other sources, but not even the gospel authors make this claim. Paul was writing several decades after the alleged event, to ignorant pagans several hundred miles away. He knew that he could get away with a lie like this, because there is no way that any of his readers could verify his claims. In other words, there were not 500 people who saw jesus after his death; there is one person who claims that 500 people saw him. I just want to clarify that my belief that jesus probably never existed is my personal opinion, not the official view of Judaism. There is no offial or correct Jewish belief about jesus. We agree that he's not God or the messiah (and that's our view of all other humans as well), but there's no "official" belief about him. Most Jews probably don't think about him much at all unless somebody else brings it up. If pressed, most would probably say that he existed or most likely existed. To me, it makes no difference theologically whether he existed or not. In fact, I used to think that he did exist, but after examining all the evidence I concluded that he more likely did not. http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm http://mama.indstate.edu/users/nizra...efutation.html did_jesus_really_live http://www.jesuspuzzle.org/
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