SNG Quiz - Page 13

microbet · #**121** 06-05-2005, 07:52 PM

Well, AK is a bad call because it loses more equity by calling.

The push is +$EV depending on the calling range you put BB on. If you put BB on a tight range, even including AK, BB will call so infrequently that it works out. SB does not want a call for sure, except maybe from a hand it dominates. If BB showed AK and said "I will call", you wouldn't push, I would think without AA or KK.

lastchance · #**122** 06-05-2005, 07:53 PM

That's why BB needs to slide all of his chips in as well by moving all-in against the small stacks.

And yes, you'd much rather be SB than BB.

It might be a reason to call QQ here. ICM doesn't include these factors of SB having the ability to get monster folds here.

But, Button and UTG are not being insanely tight. They need chips. They're going to call, they're going to push. This bubble's about to bust soon. Pssing up here is good.

freemoney · #**123** 06-05-2005, 07:58 PM

but SB will act first every hand except 1/4 and if he has 72o and situations where there will be very little FE, you have to call with a wider range in hand 1 to avoid these situations.

chumdawg · #**124** 06-05-2005, 08:00 PM

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I think the reason there has been so much disagreement on this is because at the 10+1 level there are no metagame considerations. You won't see those people again. At the level Nick and Freemoney are playing it is important to take some -EV situations now so as to convince the SB in the situation that it is not profitable to push any two when you are in the BB.

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The problem is that pushing any two is an indefensible play. We've seen that even when you push any two, then calling with AK is a mistake. So does calling with AK convince SB that pushing isn't profitable? Or does calling let SB know that BB calls with too wide a range of hands, thus makes is making mistakes?

[/ QUOTE ]I think the issue here is that the argument seems to assume that if BB will make a mistake by calling with AK, then SB receives the benefit of that mistake. I don't think this is true.

Let's say SB KNOWS that BB has AK. SB has AQ. Does he push still, taking comfort in the fact that BB would be making a mathematical mistake in calling? I don't think so.

So in that respect, there indeed IS a defense to the SB's pushing with any two. The BB basically says "I'll sacrifice a couple bucks here, to keep you from stealing my blinds with any two cards."

In other words, you don't give the SB the comfort zone of knowing he gets to steal the blinds unless the opponent has a very premium hand.

Newt_Buggs · #**125** 06-05-2005, 08:33 PM

umm, I think that I already answered these things here:
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I worked out the math this morning but I didn't save it. When I worked it out this morning I think that the BB calling range had to drop to something like 77+,A10+ for this to be a bad push w 2,3o. No good 2+2er is calling this with 77

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it doesn't matter if hes going to spite call with AK! Its still a very +EV push knowing that he has a looser range. He can be calling willing to call with 88, or AJ and its still a profitable push w 2,3o. The reason why this is a fairly straightforward, mathematical situation is beacuse the margin is so wide.

chumdawg · #**126** 06-05-2005, 08:46 PM

If his calling range is any pair, any ace, any king, and any suited connectors or one-gappers...what would be a profitable range to push with?

freemoney · #**127** 06-05-2005, 08:47 PM

you are saying he will call with 34s? thats just not practical

lastchance · #**128** 06-05-2005, 08:51 PM

It'd be a pretty slim range, true, but that calling range is certainly worse than just giving SB your blind.

chumdawg · #**129** 06-05-2005, 08:52 PM

Okay, make it 78s+. I'm not necessarily that interested in how practical it would be, in any case. I'm interested in seeing how a wider callng range affects the profitability of SB himself pushing with 34s...or 32o...or 72o...any two.

microbet · #**130** 06-05-2005, 09:49 PM

It makes a huge differenct. If you KNOW BB calls with any two, it reverses their roles and now SB can only push with monsters. As BB widens his calling range, SB tightens his pushing range.

In the real world though, BB facing a push, and not knowing what cards SB has, needs a monster to make a correct call. Just because SB will push with 23o doesn't mean those are the cards he was dealt.