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#121
05-16-2005, 05:51 PM
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Re: 88
[ QUOTE ]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "call" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Idiot. [/ QUOTE ] What? Very subjective. How about "tool"? 
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#122
05-16-2005, 05:54 PM
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Re: 88
[ QUOTE ]
If you fold and then everyone folds to the BB (which is proper play in almost all cases) then your equity is 23% of the pool. The only times your equity goes up over pushing is if you fold is when bb loses (28%) or bb folds to a raise (26%), these cases are rare. [/ QUOTE ] Why is it rare that BB loses? Should happen about 50% of the time. Secondly a 2% jump is huge IMO (from 23% to 25%). If that is the case then this is a very clear push.
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#125
05-16-2005, 06:08 PM
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Re: 88
Not every Big stack will fold to the Shorty. In fact, I would dare say that most wouldn't. Big stack is getting 3:1 on putting the shorty all-in and many people don't think about keeping the bubble alive intentially.
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#126
05-16-2005, 06:23 PM
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Re: 88
Ok, if we assume that sb never folds then 88's equity in this case would be 24%. If he folds more than 0% then equity approaches 23% the more he folds. This is in the case of all folding to the SB.
We are approaching arguing over rounding errors.
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#127
05-16-2005, 06:27 PM
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Re: 88
I was arguing more over the theory that you were using...I wasn't about to try to run the numbers right now, but again if ICM moves from 24% by folding to 25% by pushing, that isn't even close to being close and makes this a very easy, clear cut push.
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#128
05-16-2005, 07:10 PM
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Re: 88
ok i havent really read all of these responses, but it alarms me as to how many there actually are.. anyways, i dont see very many ways to play this hand. i push. period. i dont try to get tricky with it. if you min-raise, do you plan on calling a push from the sb? if i was the sb here, and hero or button min raised, i would push with 23 (any 2 cards). then what do you do with 88? call for a coinflip? the big stack advantage is being allowed to suckout. you dont have that luxury. therefore, mini raising is AWFUL.
ok, lets look at the other option. limping. here is what limping does for you. it gives you an option to get it in against the sb if he pushes AND the BB calls. THIS way, you only have to beat one of them to stay alive. this method is risky, but can gain u a lot of chips. i dont necessarily like it though, as i think straight up pushing is quite a bit better. if you push and the BB doubles and no one else calls, then he has 1100 chips and you are down to 1060.. before eating the 450 in blinds. thats not good, however, you have 88, and are not exactly in terrible shape against any random 2 cards. oh yea, there is one more option. its fold. however, its really not an option, as it would almost be as bad as miniraising. so what consensus have i come to? i push. automatically. period. the end. the other options could be DECENT, however, pushing prevails once again!! holla
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#129
05-16-2005, 07:11 PM
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Re: 88
It is not easy, that's why there is so much dissent.
What is interesting from these numbers though is it seems that calling is actually worst. What this big long argument should show, yet again, is that even good players underestimate the importance of gaining chips and therefore sometimes placing higher to their profitability.
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