30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street

[BarronVangorToth]

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Quote "It's a pretty basic play. "

Basically incorrect.

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First, as an aside, this thread has some serious legs, especially considering it isn't Shana Hyatt related.

With that said, let's forget everything BUT the flop. This is the most straightforward of any street. This is an absolute check-raise situation, given the size of the pot. Forget pre-flop, forget what to do on the turn (hell, no one agrees with my line on the turn, whatever), and forget the river. This is expertly played on the flop, at the very least. Getting this heads-up is a huge bonus with all of the money out there. Playing it this well and having this kind of control over the table makes the pre-flop action (especially since we don't know the true texture of the game for those of us not in on this particular scene) ALMOST favorable in my opinion.

Granted, in almost no game I play in would I not fold pre-flop, but if you had the right bunch of guys, sure -- and, given that, you MUST do this on the flop.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com

[droidboy]

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I have a lot to learn about this game.

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You're not the only one. In this spot 66 is an easy fold.

- Andrew

www.pokerstove.com

[Slik Rik]

What I find interesting about this situation is I believe HEFAP and SSHE differ on how to handle this situation on the flop. I also find it interesting that no one has either read the HEFAP topic I'm refering to or they just don't subsribe to it.

He cannot "protect his hand from anything on the flop because it is so big". SSHE says if you can't protect it but it has a good chance of being good, ram and jam and push your edge. HEFAP says if you can't protect it maybe you should think about taking a card off to see what the turn brings where your edge might significantly change. This is especially true if you hand is probably good but very vunerable.


I really think it is an interesting topic, evidently I'm the only one.

[Stork]

Actually, SSH also talks about waiting for the turn to raise in very large pots if your opponents would make the correct call anyway. If Clark can get his opponents to make an incorrect fold on the flop by c/ring, then it is a much better play than waiting for the turn. Typical low-limit online opponents wouldn't fold this flop with just overcards, but vegas regulars will (or so it seems like).

[BarronVangorToth]

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Actually, SSH also talks about waiting for the turn to raise in very large pots if your opponents would make the correct call anyway.

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Precisely. If this was played "by the book" then Clark is wrong to call. He called as his opponents were obviously playing outside of any realm of traditional poker, so likewise, he had to go this road.

If you know your opponent's 2- and 3-bets mean "what they should" then you're only in there with the top pairs / AKs.

Someone called an audible (or multiple audibles) and if everyone is doing something "wrong" then causing them to further do something "wrong" (fold the check-raise on the flop, given the pot size, assuming they had valid pre-flop holdings) is the way to add up all of those wrongs to make a right.

In theory.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com
Would still check the turn after getting it heads up.

[SA125]

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I had never played with him before, but on this day I had more or less folded for about 2 hours straight and this LAG had definitely noticed it,...........In hindsight it was because my 2-hours-of-folding-then-coldcalling-3-from-the-big-blind scared the bejeezus out of him.

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Barron said that when he played with you, you were much tighter than the forum thinks. You come off as a LAG for calling 3 cold with 66 here but, when it's the first hand you've played in 2 hours, and you c/r the flop, it gets some respect. Rightfully so.

[andyfox]

Barron said that when he played with you, you were much tighter than the forum thinks.

Hmmm . . .

When I've played with him, I've found him much looser than the forum thinks.

Yet a much better player than the forum thinks.

[SA125]

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When I've played with him, I've found him much looser than the forum thinks.

Yet a much better player than the forum thinks.

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I can see the first statement being possible, but the second?

[SA125]

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Yes Clark, I am more of a pundit than a hand-poster;-)

Maybe someday I'll post a hand or two, though; glad you brought it up. I guess there are two--no make that five--reasons why I don't:

1) I don't like to share all my deepest thoughts about hands with just everyone. Call me a prude, OK.

2) If I am puzzled about a hand I played, it is usually resolved within a day or two.

3) I don't play live now, so it is usually more cut-and-dried. And yes I make horrid mistakes and would be embarrassed to post those hands.

4) I don't want 2+2ers knowing my handles on online sites. Call me paranoid, OK. I have however been considering changing some unimportant hand details prior to posting them, for this very reason.

5) I get deeply embarrassed when I make a conceptual error, and turn beet red at the computer. The ignominy of having made a number of conceptual errors over the years here still torments me. I would usually rather silently err, then silently repent, then silently understand. After I throw something across the room, that is, when I realize how much that error cost me.

Well...read-dependent hands can be particularly interesting, but sometimes harder to talk about and harder to support, especially in a dry forum.

If more read-dependent hands were to be posted, the forum would become more interesting. And more critical. And more confused. Not a bad thing overall, it would seem;-) Kudos to Tommy, I guess;-)

Thanks for posting an interesting hand, Clark. And thanks mike l. for making it more interesting.

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For all of us who've played many, many hands, very ,very well, but chose to post only those that made us look like clueless, absent minded fishes, with all due respect, grow a pair and press the submit button.

[mike l.]

"I would like to see Clarkmeister or El Diablo post a fictitious hand that is just abysmally played on all streets, and supported with the most half-baked yet plausible-sounding reasons for each decision, just to see how many posters supported the decisions."

excuse me but um.. that's my job here.