SSHE Book Club Discussion - Part Two: Preflop Concepts

[BAK]

I am a newbie who is using the SSHE charts pretty religiously. I will admit to sometimes being slow to move from the loose chart to the tight chart as the tables tighten up. After ~3700 hands in PT, my VP$IP is slightly over 26%.

[wilkins76]

Any chance you could post a revised/corrected set of charts? I'm still perfecting my preflop play and find these quite useful.

[poker-penguin]

[ QUOTE ]
Read the text, understand the concepts and apply the concepts. Forget the charts.


[/ QUOTE ]

Now that's some good advice. My win rate has jumped up since I felt confident enough to ignore / forget my starting hands chart (that served me so well during months 2-5 of my poker "career").

Understanding WHY T9s might be worth playing in late position is far better than learning the charts off by heart. This ain't blackjack.

[ptmusic]

[ QUOTE ]
....Also, they get nitpicky over marginal situations such as whether calling with Axs in EP is a good play. The answer to this question is it doesn't matter. Whether or not you play Axs in EP is not going to make or break you as a poker player. Its a marginal gain or loss in EV either way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure you are a more knowledgeable player than me, but I have been playing several times per week for a few years (b&m and online) and I'm over 2BB/100 up (about 30,000 hands at levels up to 6/12). Enough qualifying....

I don't agree with the quote above (I agree with the rest of your post). There are more important issues, but I think nitpicking over these preflop decisions DOES matter.

Why? Because though they are indeed small +/- EV decisions, if you make enough of these small decisions the wrong way, you are going to lose a lot of money.

SSHE, p.45: "you can make weak preflop calls tens of thousands of times per year.... Thus, a solid, almost mistake-free preflop strategy is critical to long-term success in small stakes hold 'em."

I love SSHE. But I think not including the number of limpers in a clearly defined preflop strategy WILL CAUSE many players to make thousands of (slightly) -EV preflop decisions every year.

-ptmusic

[Nfinity]

Your perception on solid vs. weak play is a little off...

Calling a raise in Middle Position with 45s is a weak call. A solid Pre-Flop game will eliminate plays such as this.

Wondering what to do with Axs when first in, is nitpicky. These are the plays that are so miniscule in terms of EV gain or loss that Ed Miller is talking about.

Knowing when and why you can/should enter a pot with your pre-flop holding is WAY better than memorizing any charts and graphs.

[ptmusic]

I'm not suggesting that memorizing a chart is the be-all-end-all. I saying that when there IS a chart (like there is in SSHE, the subject of this thread), it should include important concepts like the number of limpers already in before you act.

Obviously, cold-calling 45s in MP is a bad play (I don't think you're suggesting I'm that stupid?). But even limping in with 45s in MP, in the wrong conditions, will cost you plenty in the long run. Add that to other so-called "nitpicky", but poor, decisions, and you become a losing player.

I agree that using a chart as a crutch is not good. But it is a learning tool. And if it doesn't include some important preflop concepts (which are even in the book), then it is not just a crutch, it is costly.

A more detailed chart would help the reader to know "when and why you can/should enter a pot with your pre-flop holding." And that is more important than the chart itself, as you stated.

-ptmusic

[Nfinity]

Ed, and the OP of the post that you quote, is not saying that endeavoring to a perfect pre-flop strategy is not necessary to achieve. He is saying that spending to much time focusing on the miniscule -EV mistakes takes away from time you could be better spending fixing your HUGE -EV mistakes. Maybe this will help:
Ed's biggest Leak Thread

[ptmusic]

I've read that thread, and it's a good one. And you're right, there are more important issues (as I've said earlier). I don't even think we really disagree.

I'm saying that if and when you ARE thinking about your preflop game, you should consider some important concepts that are not presented in the SSHE charts. And if you have a chart in a book, it should include those important concepts.

Because, let's face it, right or wrong - if you print a chart, people are going to use it. Just look at posts in this thread for evidence. I think it is one of the only weaknesses in an otherwise "A" grade book.

-ptmusic

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
....Also, they get nitpicky over marginal situations such as whether calling with Axs in EP is a good play. The answer to this question is it doesn't matter. Whether or not you play Axs in EP is not going to make or break you as a poker player. Its a marginal gain or loss in EV either way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with the quote above (I agree with the rest of your post). There are more important issues, but I think nitpicking over these preflop decisions DOES matter.

Why? Because though they are indeed small +/- EV decisions, if you make enough of these small decisions the wrong way, you are going to lose a lot of money.


[/ QUOTE ]

Here's a question for you. Many players on this site recommend playing with a VPIP of 15-16, while I (along with many players far better than myself) play with a VPIP around say 22. Why the difference? From these numbers alone can you tell who is more profitable? Do these numbers really mean that much in the grand scheme of one's poker ability?

Now think about your answers and relate them back to what was discussed in this thread. Do you see what I'm getting at?

[ptmusic]

Yup.

Is it okay to wish for a better chart? Not just for me....

-ptmusic

p.s. I'm about a 22 VPIP too.