30-60 Hand

[Bartholow]

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if clark can safely fold to your three bet then you had better start making it with AQ occasionally to pick up these pots.

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I can see once in a blue moon making this play, but remember that you don't know that Clark has a hand that folds to a 3-bet. He still could have a set, or just the top pair that he actually had. Throwing around a lot of 3 bets out of position with no pair is not going to make you money, especially playing against a good player like Clarkmeister.

PS No, I haven't been to any Vegas nights in Ohio at all. I just moved here a few months ago, and I mostly prefer online to live play anyway. At least in terms of the limits that would be available. And it's hard to imagine good dealers at these things, once again making me prefer the speed of online. If you know of any good home games, or if there are pot-limit/no-limit games at casino nights, I could change my tune [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

[Clarkmeister]

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"So most fold to a turn raise, but a couple of you 3-bet."

lol that is so stupid. talk about giving too much action. you know, sometimes AQ just doesnt take it down. if youve got clark still just calling on the turn it's time to bet the river cause AQ gets a nice call (but not raised) from aces it has dominated in clark's hands. clark may also have some bitty pocket pair but that's okay, AQ is a clear value bet here.


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I agree with you that 3-betting the turn is pretty poor.

[Clarkmeister]

"Curiously, I think that it would be well advised to play the way you did with a hand like AT."

I agree, and I think KT is similar in that respect. Not as good obviously, but then again, he's a lot less likely to suspect reverse domination with a King hitting.

"A hand like JT on the other hand should be played more aggressively on the flop. "

You know what....I agree, but I'm not sure I should. This guy is going to the river with his AQ on this board. Period. He's also more than capable of making it 3 bets on the flop with it (and with no pair). So am I really gaining anything by going to war ealier, even if my hand does happen to be very vulnerable?

[Bartholow]

Well, there's enough disagreement here that SOMEONE is making some serious mistakes I think. Could be me [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

[Clarkmeister]

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"I would fold to a turn raise."

You aren't the first to post this, but it deserves looking at.

Once he is raised on the turn, he is getting 7.5-1 against what most people assume is a small pocket pair. Shouldn't he call? His 6-outer is worth that. I just wonder what people put me on that they would fold their 2 overcards here getting 7.5-1 on the turn.

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I think I lose when I hit too often. You could easily have a suited ace that hit its kicker or a set here.

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But most people put me on a small pair. I could have a set, but what if you have the best hand? Maybe I take a shot on the turn and check behind...you have some unknown % of a chance at a free showdown too. I just know that's an awful lot of money in the pot to assume you are totally screwed.

[Clarkmeister]

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On this nothing board I just have a hard time believing clark is there on the river without a hand that doesn't beat AQ no pair. I don't think he calls the turn here without a hand he thinks he's ahead with. His most likely hand is something not very vunlerable like Ax where x = his kicker that he hit on the flop. Therefore in the SB's shoes I think its a pretty easy check fold on the river.

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I think this is pretty accurate. I do think it is mandatory that he bet the turn though.

[Clarkmeister]

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"I don't think I agree with this, Mike. In Clark's description of the player, he writes "you are generally passive preflop"."

oh yeah good point. i guess im having trouble trying to conjure up an image of a player that plays passive preflop but loose aggressive and tricky postflop. nope, it's just not coming to mind.


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Maybe a detailed explaination will help.

He is very loose passive preflop. He will blind steal, and he can occassionally get tilty and go nuts, but generally, he wants to limp in and see lots of flops.

In Vegas, in the games he plays in (20-40 through 40-80) this means he gets isolated a lot. So as part of his survival, he has learned that he needs to play back postflop a lot to protect his limping tendancies. So he will bet lots of flops, scary and raggy alike. He will checkraise the flop and check-fold the turn. He mixes it up pretty well and pretty aggressively postflop. I think it is something that has evolved from him constantly being out of position and headsup in raised pots.

[Clarkmeister]

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am I the only one who bets the turn virtually all the time in the SB's shoes?

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No. I think his preflop, flop and turn play are pretty routine.

[J_V]

Yeah, that really is the beauty of it. He could never tighten up, and I could never loosen up enough to be able to tighten up.

[Coilean]

My plan was actually to fold to the raise until I feel like Clark is out of line, not to charge out of the gate spewing chips. You seem to think this is a cookie cutter situation, I happen to think it's one that requires constant monitoring and readjustment.