How much money do you need?

[Derek in NYC]

[ QUOTE ]
We ain't looking for a hand out, we looking for a hand up!

[/ QUOTE ]

What on earth does this mean? Let me guess. It involves the adjective "free" in front of the noun "housing", "food", "retirement", "healthcare", "higher education", right?

And it doesnt involve the words "responsibility", "savings", "effort", "natural talents", or "meritocracy."

Marx is dead. The new credo should be: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his ability."

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We ain't looking for a hand out, we looking for a hand up!

[/ QUOTE ]

What on earth does this mean? Let me guess. It involves the adjective "free" in front of the noun "housing", "food", "retirement", "healthcare", "higher education", right?

And it doesnt involve the words "responsibility", "savings", "effort", "natural talents", or "meritocracy."

Marx is dead. The new credo should be: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his ability."

[/ QUOTE ]

I just don't approve of all the corruption in big business and our government.

So much of OUR money is misused to benefit a minority. Too many special interests. Or they use our money to do studies that show teens who drink alcohol are more likely to get into auto accidents (I could've told them this for free, but they choose to spend a few million dollars instead)

I'm not saying that someone else should pay for my needs, or anyone elses needs. I'm just saying we need a better system that still provides incentives for hard work, while not creating such a large divide in our populace.

Unfortunately, I don't have a solution, I just see the problem.

[SocialWelfareIV]

Grandgnu --

You suggest that people should have 20-30 hour work weeks. Can you imagine how much lower the quality of life in this country (and in the world) would be if people had been doing this for the last century? Or even decade?

You mentioned people commuting hours to work and then working 8-12 hours a day. Do you really think that these people are poor? Most likely they're middle class people that "are trying to get ahead" and want to be able to afford a nice house, car, education for children, etc. That's the beauty of the capitalist system -- people can work 8-12 hours of a day, or they can go the route you have and work a few less hours and lead a more relaxed life. Both are fine.

Finally, do you really think Bill Gates made his billions on the backs of the poor? Did he exploit the labor of janitors and fast food workers to make all this money? More and more the rich and super-rich are in fact making their money on the backs of the middle class.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
Grandgnu --

You suggest that people should have 20-30 hour work weeks. Can you imagine how much lower the quality of life in this country (and in the world) would be if people had been doing this for the last century? Or even decade?

You mentioned people commuting hours to work and then working 8-12 hours a day. Do you really think that these people are poor? Most likely they're middle class people that "are trying to get ahead" and want to be able to afford a nice house, car, education for children, etc. That's the beauty of the capitalist system -- people can work 8-12 hours of a day, or they can go the route you have and work a few less hours and lead a more relaxed life. Both are fine.

Finally, do you really think Bill Gates made his billions on the backs of the poor? Did he exploit the labor of janitors and fast food workers to make all this money? More and more the rich and super-rich are in fact making their money on the backs of the middle class.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, the middle class have suffered quite a bit as well as the poor, and the middle class is disappearing as the gap widens.

As far as the quality of life: Productivity declines as you work more hours and more days. What would be better?

SOLUTION A: Work 8+ hour workdays and 50-70 hours per week and be miserable, out of shape and have difficulty managing a relationship and children

SOLUTION B: Work 4-6 hours per day and under 30 hours per week and have time for yourself, your family and your community. Time to stay in shape, etc. This person is more likely to be more productive per hour compared with someone who is stretched to the limit and worked to the bone.

I'd rather have an employee who's giving me his/her best 20 hours per week, then doing a half-assed job 40 hours per week. Life is too short to spend it working 70 hours a week. I know plenty of miserable people and they're working 90-104 hours PER WEEK, all the friggin time, and they have three jobs. Screw that man!

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Grandgnu --

I'd rather have an employee who's giving me his/her best 20 hours per week, then doing a half-assed job 40 hours per week. Life is too short to spend it working 70 hours a week. I know plenty of miserable people and they're working 90-104 hours PER WEEK, all the friggin time, and they have three jobs. Screw that man

[/ QUOTE ]

Very funny, you need not fear ever having any employees, hard working or otherwise, with your lack of business acumen.

[SocialWelfareIV]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Grandgnu --

You suggest that people should have 20-30 hour work weeks. Can you imagine how much lower the quality of life in this country (and in the world) would be if people had been doing this for the last century? Or even decade?

You mentioned people commuting hours to work and then working 8-12 hours a day. Do you really think that these people are poor? Most likely they're middle class people that "are trying to get ahead" and want to be able to afford a nice house, car, education for children, etc. That's the beauty of the capitalist system -- people can work 8-12 hours of a day, or they can go the route you have and work a few less hours and lead a more relaxed life. Both are fine.

Finally, do you really think Bill Gates made his billions on the backs of the poor? Did he exploit the labor of janitors and fast food workers to make all this money? More and more the rich and super-rich are in fact making their money on the backs of the middle class.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, the middle class have suffered quite a bit as well as the poor, and the middle class is disappearing as the gap widens.

As far as the quality of life: Productivity declines as you work more hours and more days. What would be better?

SOLUTION A: Work 8+ hour workdays and 50-70 hours per week and be miserable, out of shape and have difficulty managing a relationship and children

SOLUTION B: Work 4-6 hours per day and under 30 hours per week and have time for yourself, your family and your community. Time to stay in shape, etc. This person is more likely to be more productive per hour compared with someone who is stretched to the limit and worked to the bone.

I'd rather have an employee who's giving me his/her best 20 hours per week, then doing a half-assed job 40 hours per week. Life is too short to spend it working 70 hours a week. I know plenty of miserable people and they're working 90-104 hours PER WEEK, all the friggin time, and they have three jobs. Screw that man!

[/ QUOTE ]

There are people out there that work ridiculous hours a week. I would split them into two groups; people that are working those hours by choice and people that are not working those hours by choice. People working 50+ hours a week may love their job, be workaholics, love money, hate their family, but whatever the reason is, this is their choice and it is the virtue of capitalism and democracy that they can work the hours they want. The problem with mandating a "SOLUTION B" is that it screws these people over and creates a less productive society in general.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Grandgnu --

I'd rather have an employee who's giving me his/her best 20 hours per week, then doing a half-assed job 40 hours per week. Life is too short to spend it working 70 hours a week. I know plenty of miserable people and they're working 90-104 hours PER WEEK, all the friggin time, and they have three jobs. Screw that man

[/ QUOTE ]

Very funny, you need not fear ever having any employees, hard working or otherwise, with your lack of business acumen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been a manager before, but haven't owned a company myself. How many people hate their boss? Well, I was liked as a boss because I wasn't a dick to my employees.

I didn't have unrealistic expectations of them, or expect them to devote their lives to their job instead of their families. I understood that people had things besides work going on in their lives, and did what I could to accomodate their needs. Too many businesses fail to see the benefit of such an approach (a happy employee WILL be more productive AND less likely to steal or waste time on the clock)

[Derek in NYC]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just saying we need a better system that still provides incentives for hard work, while not creating such a large divide in our populace.

[/ QUOTE ]

We have a great system for this incentive. It is called capitalism. Work hard and you make money that you get to keep, after paying some taxes. Dont work hard, and expect to sleep on the street or eat pet food in your old age.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
There are people out there that work ridiculous hours a week. I would split them into two groups; people that are working those hours by choice and people that are not working those hours by choice. People working 50+ hours a week may love their job, be workaholics, love money, hate their family, but whatever the reason is, this is their choice and it is the virtue of capitalism and democracy that they can work the hours they want. The problem with mandating a "SOLUTION B" is that it screws these people over and creates a less productive society in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand what you're saying about the freedom to work those hours if they choose. But I don't believe my solution would provide for a less productive society.

More hours worked does not necessarily translate into higher levels of productivity. There is a limit to our stamina and attention spans, and A LOT of time is wasted by employees who are working 8-12 hours or more per day.

An employee working 4-6 hours a day is more likely to be focused on their respective tasks, and to have more energy and be in better health.

Again, there's more at stake here than money. The mental and physical well-being of our society is at risk with our current workaholic lifestyle, as is proper upbringing of our children.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
An employee working 4-6 hours a day is more likely to be focused on their respective tasks, and to have more energy and be in better health.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am being honest when I say I don't understand your perspective at all. People working 8 hours a day will screww of for two of them. If this same person works only four hours a day he.she will still find a way to screww off for one of those hours. They will not, I repeat will not ever be more productive. Human nature just doesn't work that way anwhere except in your imagined utopian society.

The people who are willing to work ten hours a day actually work for ten hours a day. They are not the type to screw around and cry about having a ten hour a day job. They are thankful for not being on welfare and for not living in a communist country.

Your premise is really flawed, IMHO.