Lets end the Stupidity Please

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
I am simply saying that given these two scenarios...

You have 5BB. You must push with hand range x-y.

You have 12BB. You mush push with hand range x-y.

No other options.

...he would be better off starting with 12BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

again. your point is merely showing that having a 12BB stack is preferable to having a 6BB stack. that is true, and i'm not disputing it. i'm only saying that the 12BB stack is LESS than twice as valuable, in terms of your overall chances. think about this example:

with the 12BB stack, you're in a tourney that for whatever reason offers disconnect protections. if you had the option of raising to 6BB and disconnecting, essentially being allin, wouldn't that be your best option?? isn't it very likely to get you more +EV on that hand, than you could by any options that you actually have in a tourney with a 12BB stack?

[Br00mcorn]

[ QUOTE ]
But, one scenario is +ev and one scenario is -ev.


Are you saying that you would choose a situation that is -ev over a situation that is +ev?

Jeez.

[/ QUOTE ]

no. knee-jerk response = bad. please think about it first. until you understand it. then form an opinion. forming an opinion should not precede understanding.

i'm giving examples of a principle applied to different situations. i'm only saying that based on given premises, there are certain types of situations in which a slightly -ev play is correct and others in which a slightly +ev play is wrong (betgo already implied the latter in previous posts). i'm not saying i'd rather take a -ev situation over a +ev. first, situations are not inherently - or + ev. in a given situation one can make various plays that may be + or - ev in the context of the situation. given that you are in a particular type of situation, what's the best course of action? in the scenarios above, i am discussing why in one type of situation the best course of action (imo) is in fact a -ev play (because it is -ev for that specific hand but profitable in the big picture) and why in another, different type of situation, the best of course of action (imo) is to pass up a +ev gamble.

i am not saying i'd rather have one or another.
i'm am showing how an idea can be applied to different situations to determine the correct course of action. this is what poker theory is. in this particular case, a novel idea is leading to counter-intuitive conclusions, which confuses people. but if you think about and really understand the concepts it's really quite simple. but as doyle said in 'poker wisdom of a champion' "how did you feel about it ten seconds before it was obvious?" ...

[scott8]

Ummmm, Ok. My post was direct sarcasm to El D's post. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I swear to God, this thread needs to stop.

[Br00mcorn]

sorry. totally mistook what you were referring to.

also in response to el diablo's post: err... you don't seem to understand that people's calling ranges are going to be much greater when you're all-in is smaller and vice versa, and also that you are risking different amount of chips. if you pushed with the same range of hands for 5bb and 12bb, you would be losing lots of money, either by not pushing with enough profitable hands when you're at 5bb, or by pushing with too many hands when you're at 12bb.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
also in response to el diablo's post: err... you don't seem to understand that people's calling ranges are going to be much greater when you're all-in is smaller and vice versa, and also that you are risking different amount of chips. if you pushed with the same range of hands for 5bb and 12bb, you would be losing lots of money, either by not pushing with enough profitable hands when you're at 5bb, or by pushing with too many hands when you're at 12bb.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are very confused and you don't understand the extremely simple point that El D is making. It has nothing to do with "calling ranges" or any particular element of the game. It has ONLY to do with the very basic notion that no matter how peculiar are your strategies for each stack-size, it is STILL better to have a bigger stack than a smaller one, because a bigger stack at a MTT = being worth a bigger part of the prize pool = BEING IN A POSITION WHERE YOU HAVE (POTENTIALLY) WON MORE REAL MONEY!

If you think this is wrong, you are a horrible player in an almost unimaginable way.

My god, this discussion is like arguing with people who are claiming that making a net win of $X is more profitable than making $Y, while at the same time they know and admit that Y>X.

The stupidity does not end.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
with the 12BB stack, you're in a tourney that for whatever reason offers disconnect protections. if you had the option of raising to 6BB and disconnecting, essentially being allin, wouldn't that be your best option?? isn't it very likely to get you more +EV on that hand, than you could by any options that you actually have in a tourney with a 12BB stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

OK this wins the prize for craziest argument in this thread. What is your point exactly, again? That in order to maximize profit in a MTT that allows "all-in" protection you better play a 12BB as if it was 6BB and pretend as if your "last" 6BB don't exist by simply disconnecting after raising 6BB with some specific hand you don't even bother to mention?

GREAT POINT.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
I am simply saying that given these two scenarios...

You have 5BB. You must push with hand range x-y.

You have 12BB. You mush push with hand range x-y.

No other options.

...he would be better off starting with 12BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disclaimer: I don't know ED intentions with this post since I haven't read all this thread.

But I would like to point out that one common mistake I have seen with good players, it's the fact that they treat a 12BB stack like a 5BB stack. That is, their definition of short stack is usually too big.

[schwza]

betgo, your original post was trying to be way too cute. of course people will think your post is dumb if you give an "ironic" title and overstate your points. if your original post had been exactly what chrisw wrote (quoted below), everyone would have said, "ok, that's sort of interesting" and moved on. but you dressed it up to be shocking for some reason, and it got flamed.

here's what you should've written:

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say that you have a 5 BB stack. Because you are a studious 2+2er, you are going to play it skillfully, moving in frequently to gain 1.5 BB at a risk of only 5 BB. What is your expected # of chips at the end of the tournament? If you're good at pushing, let's imagine that your chip expectancy is 7 BB.

Now, imagine instead that you've got an 8 BB stack. You can't raise and fold to a reraise, so you're stuck with the all-in move. However, you are now risking 8 BB to gain 1.5, so you need strong odds of winning on the occasions when your bet is called to justify the greater risk/reward ratio, constraining the number of hands that you can successfully play. Again, let's assume that you are going to play this stack well. Perhaps your expected stack size at the end of the tournament is 9 BB.

So, if you pay two rounds of blinds to go from 8BB to 5BB, you've really only cost yourself 2 BB in expectation instead of the 3 BB which it appears that you've lost. Obviously, that's still 2 BB lost, and it decreases your $EV, but perhaps not as much as you might have thought. So, if you know that you're really only costing yourself 1 BB per round in chip EV instead of the 1.5 BB which it appears that you are losing, you'd be less likely to push with borderline hands while you're getting blinded down.

Now, I'm not saying that these numbers are accurate or that you have to agree with betgo's analysis. FWIW, I believe that he is right. Either way, it is ridiculous to flame him for such a thought-provoking post.


[/ QUOTE ]

[rockythecat99]

Omg why is this still going on??? LEARN TO PLAY A MEDIUM STACK. I think like I said before people are misunderstanding HOH concepts. IT IS NOT A RULE BOOK. The book just lets you think about situations differently.

Basically his point is that it is easier to play a small stack than a medium stack. That is absolutely wrong. If you don't know how to find +ev spots with a medium stack then your game has a MAJOR leak.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Omg why is this still going on??? LEARN TO PLAY A MEDIUM STACK. I think like I said before people are misunderstanding HOH concepts. IT IS NOT A RULE BOOK. The book just lets you think about situations differently.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not following HOH2. I am disagreeing with it. HOH2 says to play aggressively in the orange zone and put in loose raises to avoid falling into the red zone. I think you should generally play tighter than normal in the orange zone, particularly to low end of it.