Why Do Jews Reject Jesus?

[bossJJ]

The ebionites, the early Jewish followers of Jesus, (mistakenly) believed that he was the messiah, but they didn't worship him as God and they continued to follow Torah law. So they were still practicing Judaism. It's no sin to believe in a false messiah, but it is a sin (idolatry) to worship him as if he were a god (or God). If/when they starting worshipping Jesus as God or stopped following Torah law, they were no longer following Judaism.

The fact remains that very few (if any) knowledgeable Jews (about Judaism) became Christians. The rapid growth of Christianity came from overwhelmingly gentile converts outside of Israel. That religion was invented and spread mainly by Paul. The Jerusalem Church died out, and the vast majority of the Jews in Israel stayed Jewish.

To a knowledgeable Jew, the gt is obviously pagan nonsense. It's full of lies and mistakes, so had no appeal to those with a knowledge of Judaism, who already had everything they need (spiritually) in Judaism. But it has a lot of stuff that was familiar and comforting to pagans.

Many modern Jews (and others) now believe that Paul was actually a false convert to Sadducean Judaism. This belief about Paul apparently originated with the Ebionites. Paul claimed to be a Pharisee who studied under Gamaliel, this is most definitely false. Educated Pharisees had a very good understanding of both the oral and written Torahs. Paul’s writings demonstrate that he had absolutely no understanding of the Pharisees’ logical rules and way of argument (and only advance students studied under Gamaliel).

Also, while most Jews followed the Pharisees, outside of Israel very few were actually memebers of the party. He also claimed to know that he was of the tribe of Benjamin, which is unlikely, as it had assimilated into Judah several hundred years earlier. This is kind of like a modern day Jew claiming to be from a distinguished line of Orthodox rabbis from Alaska. It just doesn't wring true. And Paul even said that it's okay to lie in order to win converts (I Corinthians 9:20-23, Romans 3:7-8).

Like the other gt authors, his knowledge of Judaism and Hebrew is extremely poor, and he expresses pagan beliefs from a pagan point of view. This, along with his antisemitism, is what makes it most likely that he wasn't a Jew.

Here is an example of Paul’s ignorance. In Gal 3:15-16, he claims that because God’s promises to Abraham (e.g. - Gen 22:18, 26:4) discuss his "seed" (singular) and not "seeds" (plural), this means that it refers to only one seed, jesus. However, the word "zer’a" (zayin-resh-ayin = "seed"), while indeed singular in form, is a collective term that refers to (all) a person’s descendants. See, for example, Gen 13:16, 15:5, 16:10, 17:19, 22:17, 26:4, 46:6, 2 Kings 11:1, 2 Chron 20:7. In all of these verses it is clear that "zer'a" refers to more than one person.

It is similar to the word "sheep" in English. We never say "sheeps", but if someone says, "I will take all my sheep to the field," we know that they mean more than one. Anyone who claimed that it only refers to one sheep, because they said "sheep" instead of "sheeps" would just be demonstrating that he doesn’t know English. Likewise, anyone (like Paul) who claims that "zer'a" refers to only one person (because it doesn’t have a plural ending) is just demonstrating his ignorance of Hebrew. Christians fall for this crap because they have no knowledge of Hebrew, but Jews know better.

[bossJJ]

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The writers of the New Testament shared many characteristics with Judaism, such as use of the texts other than the Masoretic Text being the most striking since it goes to your contention that the Jewish people didnt in fact do this.

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I didn't mean to imply that Jews don't use translations, if that's what you're saying here, just that we agree about the Hebrew text. We do think it's best to learn Hebrew and study the bible in the original language.

[bossJJ]

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...if you read the gospel with the usual verse by verse cross-scriptural references, you will see how much of what Jesus said and did is referenced to specific old testament verses, and that if the writers of the gospels "made it up", they noneltheless possessed an awesome knowledge of the torah that rivals the star pupil of any yeshiva.

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ROFLAO! The gt authors didn't even know basic Hebrew! A Hebrew school first-grader knows more than them. That's likes saying that a foreigner who thinks that "sheeps" is proper English, and that his god Bobo has fulfilled the U.S. constition, knows more than U.S. Supreme Court justices. He doesn't, of course. He's just an arrogant little prick. And anyone who agreed (with his interpretations) would just be demonstrating his own ignorance.


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Also I find it interesting that none of the Jewish posters took the bait about my reference to the Red Heifer. I suspect that over time, no matter how many red heifers might be found in Israel, none will be declared to be valid, because the Jews really don't want to rebuild the temple and continue the practice of animal sacrifices, a practice that would be so politically incorrect today. And of course, in order to rebuild the temple, is is most likely that the Dome of the Rock, one of the holiest sites of Islam, would have to be demolished in order to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm finding it hard to keep up with all the posts. It wasn't clear what you're asking exactly. I'm still not sure. The Hebrew bible says that the temple will be rebuilt in the messianic age. You disagree with this. But how does this prove anything about jesus? What is your point?

[BluffTHIS!]

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The gt authors didn't even know basic Hebrew!

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Since Jesus' disciples were Jews as well as gentiles, it should be obvious that this isn't true, as many educated people then spoke a mixture of Greek, Latin, Hebrew and Aramaic, a close cousin of Hebrew. If you think otherwise then prove it.

And if you don't know the significance of the red heifer to Jewish prophecy regarding the rebuilding of the temple, then google it.

[bossJJ]

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The gt authors didn't even know basic Hebrew!

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Since Jesus' disciples were Jews as well as gentiles, it should be obvious that this isn't true, as many educated people then spoke a mixture of Greek, Latin, Hebrew and Aramaic, a close cousin of Hebrew. If you think otherwise then prove it.

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I don't think the non-existent jesus had any disiples. I was referring to the authors of the gt, not jesus' disciples. The gt authors wrote in Greek, made mistakes with the Hebrew they referred to, and generally demonstrated that they had a very poor knowledge of the bible. I've pointed out some of their mistakes already. What evidence do have that they knew Hebrew so well? Since you obviously don't know the language, how are you even qualified to make such a statement?

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And if you don't know the significance of the red heifer to Jewish prophecy regarding the rebuilding of the temple, then google it.

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I do know the meaning, although I'm sure Christians have a different interpretation. You're comment was basically a cop-out. You are unable to refute any of my points, nor can you provide any evidence to support any of the christian positions.

[BluffTHIS!]

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The gt authors wrote in Greek, made mistakes with the Hebrew they referred to, and generally demonstrated that they had a very poor knowledge of the bible. I've pointed out some of their mistakes already. What evidence do have that they knew Hebrew so well? Since you obviously don't know the language, how are you even qualified to make such a statement?

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My point was that many of the disciples being themselves Jewish were surely Hebrew speakers as well. And the gospel of Matthew is generally agreed from textual evidence to have been written in Aramaic originally, although now only the Greek version is extant.

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And if you don't know the significance of the red heifer to Jewish prophecy regarding the rebuilding of the temple, then google it.
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I do know the meaning, although I'm sure Christians have a different interpretation. You're comment was basically a cop-out. You are unable to refute any of my points, nor can you provide any evidence to support any of the christian positions.

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Christians have no interpretation of the red heifer prophecy and I was only seeking a Jewish comment on same, since that is just another prohpehcy that Jews don't really seem to want to be fulfilled despite whatever signs might appear indicating that it has been.

[GeorgeKarb]

David,

Did John Louis von Neumann reject Jesus?

What was his problem? Was he a nutty Jewish Catholic?

You must think so.... Is that your opinion?

John von Neumann math & science accomplishments are legend, and numerous.

Or maybe you missed your calling -- I think so....

They say a mind wasted is a sad thing...

"For all the words of tongue or pen,
the saddest are these: 'It might have been'"

"Maud Muller, stanza 53"; John Greenlead Whittier


Most warm regards,

George

[buck_thunder]

I am not a religious person AT ALL, but you are getting out of line with your posts. For someone who is so intelligent you make the most bitter, angry, and ridiculous comments. Its like you are turning into Hitler - you know the guy who got so obssesed with jews he went crazy and killed them all. I mean, why do you get so angry about organized religion. My father is one of the most inteligent men I have ever known (IQ is of the freakin charts)and is a very devout christian. His logical views of the beginning of the world are...well illogical, but who cares. I don't hate religious people for their (what i consider) wacky views.

Another thing - most religious people would never berate you for your veiws. And i'm talking about truly devout religious people who follow thier respective teachings. They are generally quiet unassumng people who go about their lives secure in the fact they think they have their after life secured.

You are a very intelligent man - start using that to make some real diferences in the world an quit bullying around religion with your "great" mind. I mean for the love God - get over yourself David. If you think religious people are less intelligent, than you are just as bad as the bully who used to make you give him your lunch money as a kid (and don't claim that didn't happen to you). My opinion as that you were a raging geek growing up and got picked on all your life. Now you have a forum that lets you pick on less abled people and it makes you feel good about yourself.

GET SOME SELF ESTEEM. You have lost all my respect. Very sad. I thought you were bigger than this. I was vey badly mistaken. Good luck with your bitterness and please don't let it make you go crazy and start kiling all religious people.

[David Sklansky]

"Another thing - most religious people would never berate you for your veiws."

If that's true, that is not a compliment to them. Especially in regards to those who believe that those views (rather than my actions alone), will land me in hell.

The rest of your post is too obviously inaccurate to justify a reply.

[vulturesrow]

There are two major themes in your post to me which I will attempt to deal with separately. The first is the contention that the New Testament writers were not actually Jewish, and two that the Christian faith is a repackaging of pagan myths. I will address your assertion that Christianity is pagan myth recycled in another post.

With regards your first contention, I will attempt to show through large themes the emphasis on Judaism throughout the New Testament. I frankly dont have the time to debate the Jewish bonafides of each New Testament author one by one.

First of the focus of the teachings contained were clearly to the Jewish audience. They preached of the coming Kingdom, which would only have relevance to Jewish people. The New Testament contains many references to the Old Testament, and relating events to events contained in the Old Testament. Again, this would have little relevance or meaning unless it was discussed between followers of the Jewish faith. On the use of language, here is a quote for you.

There are sayings of Jesus which can be rendered both into Hebrew and Aramaic; but there are some which can only be rendered into Hebrew, and none of them can be rendered only into Aramaic. One can thus demonstrate the Hebrew origins of the Gospels by retranslating them into Hebrew." -David Flusser, Jewish Sources in Early Christianity, p.11

Some quotes from the Bible that show the Jewish focus of Jesus's messages.

So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the Gentiles run after all these things." Jesus goes on to encourage his followers to "seek first [God's] kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well." -Matthew 6:31-33

"Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." -Matthew 10:5, 6

The Book of Hebrews is a summary of Jewish history, and in fact begins with the phrase "In the past God spoke to our fathers through the prophets..." James addressed the "twelve tribes scattered among the nations" (James 1:1). Peter addressed "God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered.…" (1 Peter 1:1). Again something a non-Jew would have very little understanding of and which would mean little to a non-Jew.

The fact is that though Christianity spread rapidly through the Gentile world, it started in the Jewish community, and was taught to Jews by other Jews. As I stated before, the Jerusalem Church was vibrant for decades.

I leave you with a quote from Alan F.Segal.

However much I may disagree with Paul, my reading accedes to the authenticity of Paul's conversion experience. Paul considered himself part of a new Jewish sect and hoped to convince both fellow Christians and Jews of his vision of redemption." Here is a link to Segal's bio in case you are interested in credentials. Alan F. Segal