Last Throes

[ripdog]

[ QUOTE ]
In what way are we not trying common decency? Countries by there very nature are self serving, they exist to serve the intrest of their citizens. America is less guilty of this then most, if you want historical perspective look through history at every country that has become a superpower and see how they used that power in comparisson to how we use it. Also the fundamental beliefs of what each person thinks is the right path to go down in terms of keeping this country safe does very much go to the krux of this matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was responding to your response to AC Player's response. I think that we ARE creating more terrorists and that appeasement won't work. This is where the little box comes in to play. You can't ignore the past actions of the USA and allow them to slide on by. If you do, then you fall into the trap of believing that we have done nothing to earn their hatred. Our government serves the interest of its citizens at the expense of other country's citizens. That we are less guilty than most other super powers does not comfort me at all. Less guilty like we raped them but didn't murder them? I'm not proud of my government's behavior, even if it isn't on the same level as Nazi Germany or the USSR. I'd rather we spoke softly and carried a big stick than scream madly and bitch-slap some insignificant country just to show everyone that we mean business. I could ramble on all night, so I'll stop here.

[shots]

I'm not sure what horrible attrocities we've commited that justify the level of hate from terrorists but the fact is that we have to serve our own intrests and their government should be serving theirs but they don't and that's the problem. The point of what's happening in Iraq is if we create a prosporus representitive republic and the people start doing better by virtue of the government serving their intrests other countries will start to wonder why there government isn't doing the same and then there'll be no turning back from the wave of change that will sweep the middle-east I'm not saying it will happen in a few years it's definetly a long term plan.

[US Conservative]

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Read all of this guy's posts. (there's only four of them)

They're all the same. I think its a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is freedom a joke? I don't think so. That is why I stand behind our President and his goal of spreading democracy to the middle east.

Remember, Bush is a "war time" President not a commie lib like Clinton. I can see through the lies and distortions of the liberal media.

[kurto]

LOL [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Carry on. I'm buying it now.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have no appreciation for the sheer genius of it all, then you need to hit the history books. Start with Herodotus and Thucydides and work forward.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exkioozzmee, but the Peloponnesian Wars teach us nothing of the sort of diplomacy-as-gangsterism that you are implying. On the contrary, the afore-mentioned work should be required reading of world leaders, who should appreciate the Law of Unwanted Consequences therein described, along with a number of other Human Follies.


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If attaching the 'war on terror' nametag to Bush's gangsterism after the fact bothers you, then you have no grasp of politics in practice.

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"Gangsterism" is correct.

And we are supposed to have moved away from gangsterism in world politics.

But if you think that a country can wage its political/military affairs in a gangster's way with some other countries and quite "properly" with others, then you should start reading about the concept of osmosis and work forward.

[shots]

Read up on Nixons tri-lateral diplomacy theories. They're quite ingenious.

[ripdog]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what horrible attrocities we've commited that justify the level of hate from terrorists but the fact is that we have to serve our own intrests and their government should be serving theirs but they don't and that's the problem. The point of what's happening in Iraq is if we create a prosporus representitive republic and the people start doing better by virtue of the government serving their intrests other countries will start to wonder why there government isn't doing the same and then there'll be no turning back from the wave of change that will sweep the middle-east I'm not saying it will happen in a few years it's definetly a long term plan.

[/ QUOTE ]

We don't have to actually commit atrocities to be culpable. I don't want to go into the excruciating minutia of every questionable act (or lack of action where there should have been one). Check out this link:

Discovery of Democracy

One paragraph that I think hits the nail on the head is:

There are, thus, too many contradictions between the real American objectives and its avowed good intentions for the latter to come to fruition. Not surprisingly, therefore, the democracy speech was dismissed by Robert Fisk as typical Bush-speak—undiluted hypocrisy, ignoring historical facts that all the present Middle Eastern borders were drawn by Western colonialists and its dictators supported by the US, including Gamal Nasser of Egypt, Qaddafi of Libya, the King of Jordan, his Hashemite cousin on the Iraqi throne, the Baath Party which overthrew him, the Shah of Iran, the Taliban in Afghanistan, even some Lebanese Hizbollah leaders. Fisk could have added many more infamous names.

[raisins]

[ QUOTE ]
Exkioozzmee, but the Peloponnesian Wars teach us nothing of the sort of diplomacy-as-gangsterism that you are implying.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the Melian dialogue the Athenians come across as a bunch of power hungry gangsters with no recognition of any higher authority or standard. Thucydides if not condoning the behavior does seem to be saying that it is the way of the world and that that is the way power and politics works.

None of this is to say that I'm a cheerleader for the War on Terror. Declaring war on abstractions sounds like a losing proposition to me and just a step away from Orwell's "War is Peace". Tragicomic.

"I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace." - George W. Bush

regards,

raisins

[ptmusic]

[ QUOTE ]

"I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace." - George W. Bush

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the quote! He's like the Beatles: you think you must have heard it all by now, but every once in a while some new gem comes along.

-ptmusic

[shots]

Do you not agree that sometimes war is sometimes neccessary to achieve peace?