88

[Phoenix1010]

Flame on. Uh, I think I'd push it by the way. Seems like minraising has merit as well. Good discussion.

[Phil Van Sexton]

100 posts and no holla, and no snide comments from curtains. Must be a record.

Tomorrow I'll post a hand that I won.

[jcm4ccc]

Just push, you weak results-oriented donkey.

End of discussion.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling is the worst option. Here's what happens: the SB puts you all-in (you've shown weakness, after all), the BB folds (conceivably, since he now realizes that you may go out in 4th place), and now you either fold for a loss of 300 chips, or you are in a coin flip with the SB (who has a good chance of having 2 overcards to your 88).

Look at what the chip count will be if you call, the SB pushes, the BB folds, and you fold. SB has 6980 chips, the BB has 175 chips, you have 1235 chips, and the button has 1910 chips. If the SB wasn't bullying before, he may start now.

Folding is second worst. The button won't push unless he has a real hand. He is comfortably in second place, he is pushing through the big stack, and he doesn't want to double up the BB unnecessarily (if he pushes and the BB calls and doubles up, then he is down to 1435 chips and the BB has 1100 chips). That leaves it up to the SB to take out the BB. The SB may fold if he wants to bully the table. If not, then you have to figure the chances are 50/50 that he will double up the BB. So there's a decent chance that the BB will survive this round if you fold, with the blinds hitting you next.

Close your eyes and push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think folding is worse than calling. As much as you may like to bully when you have a big stack, there are a ton of people on partypoker, whom even with a big stack want to help gang up on the small stack. I wouldn't expect a raise from the SB with any 2.

Anyway I'd move allin preflop, and I think it's very very easy.

[curtains]

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[ QUOTE ]
This is an automatic push and it's not even close. If you're at my table, and limp here UTG, I guarantee you that I'll push my SB here (if I'm big stack SB) with any 2. And that's a given. If you fold, you're folding the best hand and playing for 3rd. What other option is there but to push? Any type of hange range you'd put the other stacks on and it's still a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Run the ICM's if:

If you push, button would only call AA-JJ. The big stack would call any ace, any suited king, any pair, and any two cards 9 or higher. The BB would fold any two cards if you get a call. The BB calls any two if both of the others fold.

I'm not certain that pushing would be +$EV.

Can eastbay's tool do something like that? I'm not too familiar with it.

[/ QUOTE ]


88 is the freaking nuts here, it's such a clear allin. Even if you get called loosely by the two bigger stacks its +EV even with the tiny stack in the BB. People need to stop overanalyzing these situations with a tiny stack and thinking about doing weird stuff like calling (although I still think calling is better than folding.)

[curtains]

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[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I browsed through some of the replies here and there's a couple that make me happy that I play sng's to win $$$. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

This is an automatic push and it's not even close. If you're at my table, and limp here UTG, I guarantee you that I'll push my SB here (if I'm big stack SB) with any 2. And that's a given. If you fold, you're folding the best hand and playing for 3rd. What other option is there but to push? Any type of hange range you'd put the other stacks on and it's still a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly right. Unless SB has no clue how to play the BS he should push you with any two on a limp. I cannot think of a better scenario for him/her to do so.

This is tailor scripted for big stack to exert maximum pressure on hero.

Let me ask this....who here as BS would not push over hero's limp...and what would be you push range if hero limped in?

My range in white:

<font color="white">it's a trick question...the cards dont matter here AT ALL </font>

[/ QUOTE ]


Too many people have assigned optimum play to the SB here (assuming they will push any 2), whereas at the same time assigned sub-optimal play to the BB after this push (assuming they will fold to this push.) If the SB pushes, the BB should almost surely call with any 2 cards here. How can we just assume one player will always play correctly whereas the other will play like a moron and fold.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
I minraise in this spot to all but complete donkeys and have posted similar hands before when I've done it with hands like ATo etc.

Of course, I call a push regardless of the BB. Realistically, there is no hand that calls when I push that folds to a minraise, and those that push back at me when I've put half my stack in are often those 'any two' 70/30 dogs. Losing FE isn't something I horribly care about, and most good players (ie, the 'push any two' crowd) should probably realize that seeing as how I've just minraised half my stack.

Primarily, the point of the minraise rather than a push is so I can get out in the rare 'button pushes, SB calls', or 'SB calls, shortie calls, the flop is AKQ' situation. If the SB knows to push two cards *on the flop* into someone who showed strength prior to an AKQ flop to keep the bubble going, he's probably already told me he's a trout and this hand plays out differently (now, I push).

Etc. etc. but you get the idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this line is terrible. First of all you are going to obviously encourage the SB here, which you definitely DON'T want to do. Too many people will move allin over the top sensing weakness.

Why is everyone trying to make hands like this into rocket science? Just go allin!!!!!!

(btw misread some stuff in your original post so I don't think it's "TERRIBLE", but I'm not a fan. I don't like to make plays that have some undesirable side effects just for the ridiculously small chance that the button+SB move allin. I really do think this shuold make the SB more likely to call or move allin, in almost all situations too.)

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I browsed through some of the replies here and there's a couple that make me happy that I play sng's to win $$$. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

This is an automatic push and it's not even close. If you're at my table, and limp here UTG, I guarantee you that I'll push my SB here (if I'm big stack SB) with any 2. And that's a given. If you fold, you're folding the best hand and playing for 3rd. What other option is there but to push? Any type of hange range you'd put the other stacks on and it's still a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly right. Unless SB has no clue how to play the BS he should push you with any two on a limp. I cannot think of a better scenario for him/her to do so.

This is tailor scripted for big stack to exert maximum pressure on hero.

Let me ask this....who here as BS would not push over hero's limp...and what would be you push range if hero limped in?

My range in white:

<font color="white">it's a trick question...the cards dont matter here AT ALL </font>

[/ QUOTE ]


Too many people have assigned optimum play to the SB here (assuming they will push any 2), whereas at the same time assigned sub-optimal play to the BB after this push (assuming they will fold to this push.) If the SB pushes, the BB should almost surely call with any 2 cards here. How can we just assume one player will always play correctly whereas the other will play like a moron and fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think if both hero and SB are all in that BB should call? I dont think I am assigning him sub-optimal play at all. uh...you are. Correct me if I misunderstood what you are saying.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I browsed through some of the replies here and there's a couple that make me happy that I play sng's to win $$$. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

This is an automatic push and it's not even close. If you're at my table, and limp here UTG, I guarantee you that I'll push my SB here (if I'm big stack SB) with any 2. And that's a given. If you fold, you're folding the best hand and playing for 3rd. What other option is there but to push? Any type of hange range you'd put the other stacks on and it's still a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly right. Unless SB has no clue how to play the BS he should push you with any two on a limp. I cannot think of a better scenario for him/her to do so.

This is tailor scripted for big stack to exert maximum pressure on hero.

Let me ask this....who here as BS would not push over hero's limp...and what would be you push range if hero limped in?

My range in white:

<font color="white">it's a trick question...the cards dont matter here AT ALL </font>

[/ QUOTE ]


Too many people have assigned optimum play to the SB here (assuming they will push any 2), whereas at the same time assigned sub-optimal play to the BB after this push (assuming they will fold to this push.) If the SB pushes, the BB should almost surely call with any 2 cards here. How can we just assume one player will always play correctly whereas the other will play like a moron and fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think if both hero and SB are all in that BB should call? I dont think I am assigning him sub-optimal play at all. uh...you are. Correct me if I misunderstood what you are saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, if hero LIMPS and SB goes allin, BB should call.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
100 posts and no holla, and no snide comments from curtains. Must be a record.

Tomorrow I'll post a hand that I won.

[/ QUOTE ]


I was asleep man, hard to wake up before 4 pm these days. I hate calling so much but its possible it's not as bad as I am making it out to be.