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| View Poll Results: How do you feel about sunglasses at B&M games less than 6/12? | |||
| They can be helpful. |
   
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24 | 12.97% |
| They are irrelevant, as no one can pick up tells anyway. |
  
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32 | 17.30% |
| Anyone who wears them at these limits is clearly a fool. |
  
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129 | 69.73% |
| Voters: 185. You may not vote on this poll | |||
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#101
03-10-2005, 06:11 AM
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Re: Conservatives are born rich!
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Wow. Way to bungle your own attempts at analogies. For one, the "US" doesn't have purchasing power, and speaking about accumulations of capital in terms of the "nation-state" is increasingly erroneous. Corporate headquarters may be stateside, but don't misinterpret that. Secondly, the thread concerned the possibilites for (financially defined) success WITHIN the US. I hope your poker abilities excede your argumentation skills. [/ QUOTE ] I am aware of this. I was trying to show that the United States with it's _FREE MARKET SYSTEM_ simply plays a little bit better game then the rest of the countries. Hence, in the _UNITED STATES_, due to our free market system, if you work hard, and pay your dues -- your most very likely going to succeed and live your version of the American dream. You should know I would never say "U.S. has purchasing power over other countries," although we are without a doubt economically the biggest country on the face of this earth. 
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#103
03-10-2005, 11:48 AM
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Re: Conservatives are born rich!
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[ QUOTE ] Economic mobility is a zero sum game, in order for one to move up, one must move down. 10 more millionaires? 1000 more minimum wagers. [/ QUOTE ] You're comparing apples to oranges. "Millionaire" indicates wealth. "Minimum wager" indicates income. One could be both a millionaire AND a minimum wager (or even unemployed). The upper, middle, and lower classes are defined by income, not by wealth. A lower class individual moves into the upper class by raising his income. This does not mean that someone from the upper class is losing money. His wealth isn't affected. Yes, someone will move down in class, but that just means that he's not generating as much new income this year relative to that other guy. If economic mobility was really a zero sum game, then the amount of wealth in the world now should equal the amount of wealth in the world 100 years ago, or even 1000 years ago. Obviously this is not the case. Wealth (and thus economic prosperity) is constantly being created. Because of this, it possible for incomes to rise rise across the board--and therefore possible for one to be upwardly mobile without negatively affecting the economic well-being of another. That other person may move down in class, but not in wealth, which is what really counts. [/ QUOTE ] I can't be bothered dealing with this now, but I'll just say I strongly disagree. 100 years ago we had less technology, less population etc.. Anyway, you have to consider another reason why conservatives push the hard work myth/meritocracy myth, is, because it serves another perpuse whereby if you follow their reasoning to its logical conlusion, you must assert that yes, people who have attained wealth, have indeed worked hard for what they have, but what of the poor? Obviously using their model you must then assert that they have not worked hard enough! In this simplistic model where all it takes is some hard work to attain middle class status, the only conclusion one can draw about the poor is that, they are in fact lazy and unwilling to work hard enough to become wealthy. Now, what does this accomplish? The prepetuation of this myth means the upper classes can now look down upon the lower classes with disdain, and say: this is a meritocracy! You got yourself where you are today through your own merits, and are undeserving of any social programs. To hell with you! If only things were so simple... The problem is when the poor begin to believe this bullshit, and then proceed to open themselves up for expoitation, by working their asses off for little pay in the hopes of bettering themselves, when in reality if everyone was truthful about it, the majority of the poor will stay poor no matter how hard they work at their jobs. In essence if you belive in this myth, you are in fact saying you believe all those struggling poor people out there are just lazy slobs who haven't worked a hard days work in their life. BULLSHIT.
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#105
03-10-2005, 01:09 PM
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Re: Conservatives are born rich!
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[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I'm from San Diego so this made me laugh. Spanos is a complete joke as a team owner. [/ QUOTE ] I never said he was any good at running a football team. But he's the perfect example of someone who pulled himself out of a "trapped" situation and made something of himself, which is what I was asked to demonstrate could be done.
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#107
03-10-2005, 01:39 PM
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Re: Conservatives are born rich!
[ QUOTE ]
I can't be bothered dealing with this now, but I'll just say I strongly disagree. 100 years ago we had less technology, less population etc.. [/ QUOTE ] And less wealth. The economic floor was raised. This just helps prove my point that it is in fact NOT a zero-sum game. [ QUOTE ] Obviously using their model you must then assert that they have not worked hard enough! In this simplistic model where all it takes is some hard work to attain middle class status, the only conclusion one can draw about the poor is that, they are in fact lazy and unwilling to work hard enough to become wealthy. [/ QUOTE ] You're taking ideas that weren't even in my post and trying to draw conclusions about me and what I believe about the poor. Do the poor work hard? I'd say most do. It doesn't matter. The point I was making here was that for someone to move up doesn't necessarily mean someone else has to move down. [ QUOTE ] The problem is when the poor begin to believe this bullshit, and then proceed to open themselves up for expoitation, by working their asses off for little pay in the hopes of bettering themselves, when in reality if everyone was truthful about it, the majority of the poor will stay poor no matter how hard they work at their jobs. [/ QUOTE ] Nobody believes that anyone gets rich just by working hard. Digging a 100' hole and then filling it back in is hard work, but it won't make you rich. Hard work is just part of the equation. You're right, the majority of the poor will stay poor no matter how hard they work at their jobs. Nobody gets rich working a min wage job--so its not exactly a good plan to stay there. Perhaps all that hard work should be redirected into finding a better job, starting a business, getting more education, or doing whatever it takes. The real problem is this idea that the poor are trapped and that the rich can only be rich because they're keeping the poor down. This is what is really keeping the poor down--the hopelessness they're fed by bleeding hearts. THIS is what I was refuting. [ QUOTE ] In essence if you belive in this myth, you are in fact saying you believe all those struggling poor people out there are just lazy slobs who haven't worked a hard days work in their life. BULLSHIT. [/ QUOTE ] I don't know where you got the idea that I belive this myth. Surely some are lazy slobs (I refer you to some of my good friends). The vast majority of those in the lower class in the US do not stay there more than 10 years. That's fact. Poverty doesn't have to be a permanent condition.
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#110
03-10-2005, 02:56 PM
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Re: Conservatives are born rich!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I can't be bothered dealing with this now, but I'll just say I strongly disagree. 100 years ago we had less technology, less population etc.. [/ QUOTE ] And less wealth. The economic floor was raised. This just helps prove my point that it is in fact NOT a zero-sum game. [ QUOTE ] Obviously using their model you must then assert that they have not worked hard enough! In this simplistic model where all it takes is some hard work to attain middle class status, the only conclusion one can draw about the poor is that, they are in fact lazy and unwilling to work hard enough to become wealthy. [/ QUOTE ] You're taking ideas that weren't even in my post and trying to draw conclusions about me and what I believe about the poor. Do the poor work hard? I'd say most do. It doesn't matter. The point I was making here was that for someone to move up doesn't necessarily mean someone else has to move down. [ QUOTE ] The problem is when the poor begin to believe this bullshit, and then proceed to open themselves up for expoitation, by working their asses off for little pay in the hopes of bettering themselves, when in reality if everyone was truthful about it, the majority of the poor will stay poor no matter how hard they work at their jobs. [/ QUOTE ] Nobody believes that anyone gets rich just by working hard. Digging a 100' hole and then filling it back in is hard work, but it won't make you rich. Hard work is just part of the equation. You're right, the majority of the poor will stay poor no matter how hard they work at their jobs. Nobody gets rich working a min wage job--so its not exactly a good plan to stay there. Perhaps all that hard work should be redirected into finding a better job, starting a business, getting more education, or doing whatever it takes. The real problem is this idea that the poor are trapped and that the rich can only be rich because they're keeping the poor down. This is what is really keeping the poor down--the hopelessness they're fed by bleeding hearts. THIS is what I was refuting. [ QUOTE ] In essence if you belive in this myth, you are in fact saying you believe all those struggling poor people out there are just lazy slobs who haven't worked a hard days work in their life. BULLSHIT. [/ QUOTE ] I don't know where you got the idea that I belive this myth. Surely some are lazy slobs (I refer you to some of my good friends). The vast majority of those in the lower class in the US do not stay there more than 10 years. That's fact. Poverty doesn't have to be a permanent condition. [/ QUOTE ] Only the first 2 lines of my post were directed at you, the rest were just my thoughts, sorry about the confusion.
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