unbeatable game?

[umdpoker]

any chump can beat these games. just play weak-tight(but very aggressive with monsters), and you will get paid bigtime. the .5-1 games at party were close to this a year ago when i first started playing, and i wish the 2-4 played like that right now. your biggest strength goes from thin value-bets to folding, even in big pots, when it is obvious you are beat and drawing dead. i think a lot of people have truoble folding tptk or an overpair when playing in these situations, because they are used to having their decent hands hold up so often.

[ACW]

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Those are play-money games, right? They can be fun but very misleading.

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Absolutely. But if you want somewhere to be able to hone your skills for the cash game under discussion, there's no better place!

If you can't beat the Yahoo games, you won't beat the ultra loose cash tables.

[ACW]

How many players cap preflop is only half the story. What matters is how much it costs you to see the flop and what the average final pot size is. If 4-5 players cap preflop AND three of them continue to cap the flop, turn and river, I'd think 87s is very playable.

If on the other hand there's not much raising post-flop, quality high card holdings would be needed to show a decent profit.

[ACW]

The key point you're missing is that you fold suited connectors when they miss the flop (need OESD or 4 flush to continue). With hands like KJ you never know whether you're ahead or second best, and when you are ahead you often get rivered.

If you think in terms of how often you'll win the pot, and not the cost to see a showdown I suspect you're basically playing the same crapshoot as everyone else with maybe a 5% edge from hand selection.

[maxpowers21]

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So what? You don't have to beat many opponents to win. You have to beat ALL of them. There is no second place in poker.

These games are multi-way games, Max, not anything else. For them, multi-way hands are needed. Straights and flushes are very multi-way friendly, and you will be getting the odds to draw to them almost always. Merely pursuing them, you'll sometimes back into other hands.

People facing a full field with just a single pair with no drawing possibilities are at a huge disadvantage in this type of game compared to others where people fold. Turning over your pair of unimproved aces on the river, even two pair, is going to do a lot less for you than it does in other types of games.

Of course, nobody is going to throw big pairs away, but the value of big cards is not absolute, as if it were a gift or a guarantee. It is RELATIVE, like the value of all hands. And it's not relative to one hand, or "many" hands -- it's relative to ALL of them. A big pair just isn't that hot a showdown hand in these games.

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1. Big pairs have a HUGE EDGE in multiway pots. This is not debatable. If you disagree with this you are just wrong. Any pair is a HUGE ADVANTAGE not a disadvantage for again basic POT EQUITY. POT EQUITY does not change preflop for these situations, If you take enough BIG PAIRS preflop you will win a heavy amount. Yes the pot equity changes post flop, given any single sample you take, but in the long run you will have a HUGE ADVANTAGE playing pocket pairs, expecially big pocket pairs in these games.

2. Straights and flushes? I think you mean suited connectors? THese hands play well in LOOSE PASSIVE games, you LOSE a lot of equity preflop by playing these types of hands for 4 bets because your PREFLOP POT EQUITY IS SMALL. These hands do well POST FLOP when your post flop POT EQUITY may be higher when you flop lucky. Playing these hands for 4 bets preflop WILL LOSE MONEY.

3. HAND VALUES ARE NOT RELATIVE. In the long run big hands have BIG EQUITY. Bad hands have -EV. In any 1 hand then yes the value of hands is relative depending on exactly what your opponets have. Over the long run, the hands have a specific equity that again is not debatable.

[maxpowers21]

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any chump can beat these games. just play weak-tight(but very aggressive with monsters), and you will get paid bigtime. the .5-1 games at party were close to this a year ago when i first started playing, and i wish the 2-4 played like that right now. your biggest strength goes from thin value-bets to folding, even in big pots, when it is obvious you are beat and drawing dead. i think a lot of people have truoble folding tptk or an overpair when playing in these situations, because they are used to having their decent hands hold up so often.

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your biggest strength goes from thin value-bets to folding, even in big pots, when it is obvious you are beat and drawing dead. i think a lot of people have truoble folding tptk or an overpair when playing in these situations, because they are used to having their decent hands hold up so often.

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this is wrong. Your biggest strength comes from
1. Playing quality hands preflop, gaining pot equity preflop, your oppoents will not play quality hands.
2. Big Value Bets, on every street. Your opponets will very frequnetly and very inocrrectly call. This = lots of money.
3. NOT folding TPTK or Overpairs in Big pots. The few times these hands are good will more then make up for the 1BB you lose frequently. No matter how obvious it may seem that you are beat, in a big, a very small % chance he/she doesn't have you beat gives the call +EV.

[Lansing]

If you played every big pair (duh), every big suited card, and every suited connector or small pair when it was only two bets to you in late position, you'd have to be a total moron not to destroy that game. Just make sure you realize that a strong draw is your goldmine, and big flops are your best friend. Overbetting TPTK is the best way to lose in this game, but neither should you be folding it that often. Essentially, you become hyper aggressive with your monsters and a station with your TPTK or two pair hands (though I'd probably raise those up a bit).

Pls PM me its location and I will come and demonstrate.

[crimhead]

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A good player loses a lot of the tools that make him a winning player when he joins those games. You can't bluff anyone, reads don't really matter, you can't manipulate anyone's perceptions or behavior...

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it takes a special set of skills to play well in this kind of game. Though you lose your bluffs and player manipulation, you gain hugely in your opportunites to value bet and pot-size manipulation.

This game is a gold mine. Anyone who can't see that should read "Small Stakes Hold 'em: Winning Big with Expert Play".

[bernie]

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What matters is how much it costs you to see the flop and what the average final pot size is

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Also what they're seeing the flop with on average is pretty important.

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If 4-5 players cap preflop AND three of them continue to cap the flop, turn and river, I'd think 87s is very playable.


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If you have a monster BR to survive the variance you will have in playing this, go for it. I wouldn't play it though. It's really not much better than their average hand your opponents are playing. I want more definitive ways of winning just on the flop than flopping a draw. Which is what you're looking for with 87s. Your implied odds are toasted. With a hand like KJs, you can win much easier with a top pair.

b

[jeffnc]

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I don't care what kind of game you're playing in - you don't need as big a bankroll to play in a crazy .25/.50 game as you do in a regular $20/40 game. That's plain nonsense.

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I never said anything like that and you know it.

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Here is what you said. Please explain specifically with respect to the parts that are in bold.

"For the bankroll and expertise needed to maximize wins in a game like this , and for the drama you have to sit through, the expert or even the merely decent player can make just as much money elsewhere with less variation and less aggravation."

If you mean that given the bankroll needed you can make just as much in a tighter, less wild game, you're wrong. If you mean that you'll need a bigger bankroll at a higher limit - high enough where you're guaranteed not having a lot of loose aggressive players - you're wrong. What did you mean?