Leadership

[Myrtle]

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I just went back and reread my original post. In it, I never even claimed that "racism was dead"--here is what I wrote:

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Well, Cyrus, this isn't the 1950's. There is very little prejudice in America today against minorities, and what little there is, is quite possibly more than functionally offset by overwielding programs such as Affirmative Action.

All in all, the race card, and race issue ARE DEAD--except for those with axes to grind or those who remain ideologically mired in ancient (modern) history.

We don't live in "a racist society" at present. If anything, we live in one of the least racist societies in the entire history of the world. But will anything less than perfection ever satisfy the Leftists, or those with axes to grind or special interests? Sadly, I think the answer to that question is "no".

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This was misconstrued and I was misquoted as saying "racism is DEAD". I'm not going to bother going back right now to find out who the culprit was.

So foolish me for having tried to clarify a statement I didn't even make. And someone needs to learn to read a tad better, too.

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...below is your clarification of your original post:

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By saying racism is largely DEAD in this country today, I don't mean "non-existent"--I mean of so little importance that it doesn't matter much anymore. Of course it still exists. It's just that most Americans aren't racist and the effects of any racism practiced today are negligible in the larger picture.

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.......of so little importance to whom?

What facts do you have to back up your assertion that 'most' Americans aren't racist?

If your statement is simply your opinion, I have no problem with that, as you are entitled to that, but it is only your opinion.

If what you're saying is that blatant racism has been greatly reduced in America over the past 50 years, then we are in agreement.

I do, however, disagree terming 'negligible' ...."the effects of any racism practiced today"

[MMMMMM]

First of all Myrtle, I was misquoted. I didn't even claim "racism is DEAD" in my initial post. Please see my response to Cyrus below titled something about Sklanksky's dogs, so I don't have to repost regarding that. And reread my original post (cited for ease of use in the repoly to Cyrus just mentioned.

Secondly, I disagree with your take that practitioners of racism have gotten much more sophisticated. I haven't observed it much if at all.

Thirdly, I'm NOT "tap-dancing around" anything, nor have I been, either in this or any other thread. You are just plain wrong about my motives. I'm NOT playing wordsmithing games. Sorry you seem to have developed such a terribly cynical guess of my mind and heart.

Fourthly, I'm NOT goinmg to "silence" anyone who disagrees with me strongly. Jokerswild was a very special case, and Mat supported the banning. So too did some of the most veteran and respected posters on this forum--and they happen to be liberals, by the way. You are really just being WAY too cynical. Sorry; wish I could help with that.

[MMMMMM]

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What facts do you have to back up your assertion that 'most' Americans aren't racist?

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Personal observation; and obserevation of what today constitute acceptable standards versus 40 years ago; and observation of general themes in media, art and literature.

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If your statement is simply your opinion, I have no problem with that, as you are entitled to that, but it is only your opinion.

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Sure it is but I also think it's likely pretty accurate.

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If what you're saying is that blatant racism has been greatly reduced in America over the past 50 years, then we are in agreement.

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Yes.

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I do, however, disagree terming 'negligible' ...."the effects of any racism practiced today"


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I'm saying I believe the overall effect is fairly negligible today especially when the effects are countered so strongly by programs like Affirmative Action.

[DVaut1]

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First of all Myrtle, I was misquoted. I didn't even claim "racism is DEAD" in my initial post. Please see my response to Cyrus below titled something about Sklanksky's dogs, so I don't have to repost regarding that. And reread my original post (cited for ease of use in the repoly to Cyrus just mentioned.

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If you're claiming that racism isn't dead, but just that race issues are dead - that seems even more factually incorrect, given that affirmative action is still a highly pertinent and relevant political topic; not to mention the racial overtones that have permeated much of the discussion regarding the crisis in New Orleans.

By the way, I have a hard time believing that you truly feel you've been misquoted, given that you seemed interested in defending the notion that racism is dead:

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By saying racism is largely DEAD in this country today, I don't mean "non-existent"--I mean of so little importance that it doesn't matter much anymore. Of course it still exists. It's just that most Americans aren't racist and the effects of any racism practiced today are negligible in the larger picture.


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[MMMMMM]

DVaut1,

By saying the race card is DEAD, I mean it is dead as far as no longer having a real leg to stand on.

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By the way, I have a hard time believing that you truly feel you're misquoted, given that you seemed interested in defending the notion:

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Christ Almighty. I TOOK THE POSTER'S WORD FOR IT THAT THAT WAS WHAT I WROTE. So, I attempted to clarify, in accord with my intended meaning.

When you read perhaps 500+ or even 1,000 posts in a day, and make a few posts yourself, it's not that hard to make a mistake on occasion. Do you, DVaut1, remember exactly every single sentence that you wrote, so much that if someone twisted the meaning of one sentence slightly, you would instantly recognize it? And if you think you could, try reading nearly every post written on this forum in the next 48-hr. period and then see if you remain infallible.

What's with this crap, anyway? Everyone seems to expect perfection out of me. I'm really getting sick of this. You're definitely one of the nicer ones, but even you pick too many bones over virtually nothing.

You know, I've been doing this moderating as a FAVOR to you all, and to 2+2; because I appreciate having this forum as a vehicle for discussion, and because I appreciate some of the posters, and because I appreciate 2+2 overall. In a way it's been a labor of love and I had hoped I could actually help make this forum better. It's a lot of uncompensated work and so far I have gotten far more resistance than assistance.

Truth be told, most of the posters on this forum don't deserve to have a moderator (or a forum); and the ones that do, don't need one. You're OK, DVaut1; but half of the new posters and a few of the old ones seem like they should still be in kindergarten.

Anyway I'm probably going to have a lot less time for this in the future due to personal work reasons anyway. Maybe as the signal-to-noise ratio here continues to descend, you and some others will realize what a detriment the noise really is.

I'll still be around, but less so. Hopefully the quality of posting will take an upturn and the amount of pettiness will take a downturn, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

[Myrtle]

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First of all Myrtle, I was misquoted. I didn't even claim "racism is DEAD" in my initial post. Please see my response to Cyrus below titled something about Sklanksky's dogs, so I don't have to repost regarding that. And reread my original post (cited for ease of use in the repoly to Cyrus just mentioned.

Well, Cyrus, this isn't the 1950's. There is very little prejudice in America today against minorities, and what little there is, is quite possibly more than functionally offset by overwielding programs such as Affirmative Action.

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...below is your OP from this string....

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All in all, the race card, and race issue ARE DEAD--except for those with axes to grind or those who remain ideologically mired in ancient (modern) history.

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Are you now saying that it is unreasonable for people to interpret that statement as it has been?

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We don't live in "a racist society" at present. If anything, we live in one of the least racist societies in the entire history of the world. But will anything less than perfection ever satisfy the Leftists, or those with axes to grind or special interests? Sadly, I think the answer to that question is "no".


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...You make the above statement as if it was an undeniable fact. It is not. And on top of it, you attempt to dilute the specific issue by bringing the politic of the word 'Leftists' into the discussion. Your ideological slip is showing.........

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Secondly, I disagree with your take that practitioners of racism have gotten much more sophisticated. I haven't observed it much if at all.

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No problem with your disagreeing with me, but I have observed that phenomenom. So we must agree to disagree on this point based upon personal observations.


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Thirdly, I'm NOT "tap-dancing around" anything, nor have I been, either in this or any other thread. You are just plain wrong about my motives. I'm NOT playing wordsmithing games. Sorry you seem to have developed such a terribly cynical guess of my mind and heart.

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......It is my opinion that you are 'tap-dancing, but if I am wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. My guess of your mind and heart come entirely from your posts and actions. You may remember that more than once in our past discussions, I have attempted to gain more insight into exactly those directions, but you have demurred. I will continue to do so.

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Fourthly, I'm NOT goinmg to "silence" anyone who disagrees with me strongly. Jokerswild was a very special case, and Mat supported the banning. So too did some of the most veteran and respected posters on this forum--and they happen to be liberals, by the way.

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...and here, my friend, is the crux of the issue. The mere idea that anyone should have to rely upon the assurance of one in a censorship position of power distorts the idea of freedom of expression to an arbitrary and artificial level.

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You are really just being WAY too cynical. Sorry; wish I could help with that.

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You call it cynical.....I call it vigilant, and we again disagree, but that is not new..... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Right now it's late & I'm tired....to be continued....

Have a good rest of the night (spoken with earnesty)

[DVaut1]

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You know, I've been doing this moderating as a FAVOR to you all, and to 2+2; because I appreciate having this forum as a vehicle for discussion, and because I appreciate some of the posters, and because I appreciate 2+2 overall. In a way it's been a labor of love and I had hoped I could actually help make this forum better. It's a lot of uncompensated work and so far I have gotten far more resistance than assistance.

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My last post (in reply to you) had nothing to do with moderating.

But, having said that...I've bought well in excess of $100 worth of 2+2 books; so I won't shed many tears for Sklansky & co. There's certainly some posters on other forums here who are doing some uncompensated 'favors' for me, in that I leech off of their free poker advice.

Yet I'm not quite sure how many 'favors' 2+2 is doing me by hosting these boards, given that I'm a devoted customer; I assume my constant hits here make this all that much more appealing to potential advertisers and business partners. And there's certainly plenty of other free message boards I could take myself.

Putting 2+2 aside, I'm even less certain of how many favors you're doing me. No offense, but I'm convinced this place wouldn't be all that much different without you (you = you in your role as moderator) - given that you admit you haven't really done much of anything, other than ban one poster, who I didn't feel should have been banned in the first place.

If you're unhappy with moderating, find some other way to spend your time; but I'm not quite sure how much sympathy I have for you.

I'm not particularly concerned with being 'nice'.

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Truth be told, most of the posters on this forum don't deserve to have a moderator (or a forum); and the ones that do, don't need one.

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This seems like you're implicitly arguing that you're not all that needed and are more or less irrelevant; I'm not quite sure what you're getting at.

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Anyway I'm probably going to have a lot less time for this in the future due to personal work reasons anyway. Maybe as the signal-to-noise ratio here continues to descend, you and some others will realize what a detriment the noise really is.

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Maybe; in which case, I think I'll head for greener pastures, not demand more moderation.

[DVaut1]

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What's with this crap, anyway? Everyone seems to expect perfection out of me. I'm really getting sick of this. You're definitely one of the nicer ones, but even you pick too many bones over virtually nothing.

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I don't think it's crap;

You said "the race card and race issues are dead" - then you said you were misquoted (although I disagree, given that you spent a few posts defending the idea that racism is dead); but either way, you're wrong - if you're position is actually that race issues are dead, that's even sillier than claiming racism doesn't exist anymore.

We can put aside that silly logic for a moment though; you spent a few posts demanding other posters produce anecdotal evidence (despite the ridiculousness of such a request) - I suppose in some vain attempt to legitimize nonsense (racism is dead, or race issues are dead; whatever you did or didn't say).

And when [censored] hits the fan and you get called out for what is patently piss poor logic and a lack of a defense of what you more or less said, you try to get on your high-horse and take the role of an innocent victim.

You're not a victim here; if you can't take it, don't dish it, so to speak.

I've seen quite a few lectures from you about maturity; I'm not quite sure your leading by example, though. Is it mature to whine about how you're being treated? Even before you were a moderator, you were more than willing to play post-cop and call out others for silliness in their posts; be willing to play by the same rules when your posts descend into crap. It's only fair. I think you're willingness to play the victim in the face of legitimate criticism raises questions about your maturity, and reeks of something awful given your penchant for lecturing others about the same.

No one expects perfection; but you spend alot of time being critical of others. So grow up and take it in stride when you're legitimately criticized, too.

See? Like I said, I'm not very nice.

[ACPlayer]

My post commented on racism. Black on white and white and black. Both exist. It is part of human nature.

Asking for an example is poor thought process. The presentation of an example does not prove the existence of rampant racism (at least as you define and redefine DEAD) and the lack of a personal example does not prove the absence.

I, on the other hand, provided specific examples from our society of racist behaviour. For your benefit I will reiterate the case of the man from India who was killed by someone as an example. Ifurther suggest you look at various posts on this forum recently about behaviour in New Orleans and the causes.



My other examples are all equally valid.

[ACPlayer]

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I've been doing this moderating as a FAVOR to you all, and to 2+2;

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Perhaps to 2+2 but dont include me in the "you all". Muddying up threads with discussion of how someone in effect is calling someone an idiot is not conducive to the low signal to noise ratio you aspire to. Better for the more discriminating reader to simple ignore the idiot comment. Of course 2+2 has the right to demand the moderation and the absence of idiot calling.

Just admit it that when you responded by redefining the word DEAD you accepted that you likely wrote that or words to that effect. Which of course you did.

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Everyone seems to expect perfection out of me.

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