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#91
10-25-2005, 04:58 PM
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Re: veganism
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Look to see if that Vegan wears leather shoes or belts or has a leather wallet and ask them how they justify that? [/ QUOTE ] I think this is a good one, better than Paluka does. Pointing out that you're a hypocrite doesn't get any better if you say, well, I'm less of a hypocrite than some other guys are. There's validity to that, but it doesn't really invalidate the point that you're a hypocrite, or the sting of that accusation. [/ QUOTE ] What a weird post. Paluka's post was right on, so I won't repeat it. The idea of someone's not going all out in one direction somehow invalidating the sacrifices that they do make is beyond silly. You're doing something that you believe is morally right, but you're not doing everything that you believe is morally right, so you're a hypocrite and your arguments have no merit. BS. This a clear sign of someone who has no argument, and has to resort to lame attempts at "stinging" because they can't dent the ideas behind the issue. 90% of my arguments go along these lines. "I'm a vegan." "Veganism isn't right." "Why?" "Well, do you wear leather shoes?!" 90% of people are morons. P.S. I don't overtly use any animal products in my daily life, and haven't for years. [/ QUOTE ] You're working way too hard. Hypocrisy is hypocrisy, even when it's hypocrisy-lite. That doesn't at all negate the good that people do even if they decline to be saints. But what you do is what you do, period. You can't erase it or object to it being noticed because you would prefer reality is anything other than what it is. I have infinitely more respect for people who would say, "I'm doing something that I don't think is 100% the best thing to do, but there are only so many sacrifices I am willing to make, and I'm not going to deny my imperfections," than for someone who says, "What, I didn't do nuthin'!" [/ QUOTE ] You're not getting it. I'm saying that calling someone a hypocrite isn't an argument against veganism. If you're discussing someone's virtue, then you can bring up their hypocrisy about animal products, but I'm sure you can find much better sins to sting them with. If you're arguing about veganism, then stick to the topic and try to come up with some argument against it. People always think that there's some implicit statement of superiority when someone says they're a vegan, and they automatically look for some way to hurt their credibility, rather than actually thinking about the issue. The ignorant try to attack ideas by bringing up actions. So many people treat these arguments like elections. [/ QUOTE ] By defintion a vegan is someone who uses NO animal products. So is that person who has a leather belt but eats only vegan foods actually a vegan. I don't think so. 
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#92
10-25-2005, 05:00 PM
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Re: veganism
[ QUOTE ]
hypothetical situation: you are vegan. you've been hiking through the rain forest for a week, eating nothing but leaves and moss the whole time. you are exhausted. you found no fruits or edible roots (must be offseason). you come to a town and discover that you have no local currency and you don't speak the language. you meet one aussie in a bar. as far as you know, he is the only one who can communicate with you. you tell him you are hungry and he puts a ham sandwich in front of you. your options: (1) say, no thanks, i am vegan. (2) peel off the bread and the lettuce and eat them hoping the bread is vegan friendly. (3) screw your principles. P.S. this actually happened to a friend of mine [/ QUOTE ] Arguments like this seem stupid to me. Do you think that cannibalism is unethical? If so, I can ask you the above question but replace the ham sandwich with a sandwich made of human flesh. Have I now proven to you that cannibalism is perfectly ethical? If not, then I don't see why you think that this the argument somehow shows that eating meat is ethical and vegans are wrong. If so, I don't have a good counter-argument, but that's fine as I can simply kill and eat you instead.
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#93
10-25-2005, 05:00 PM
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Re: veganism
Does it make you feel better to call him a vegetarian?
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#96
10-25-2005, 05:03 PM
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Re: veganism
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Plus, most of the vegans I know have some glaring deficits in nutrition. [/ QUOTE ] Most meat-eaters I know have some glaring deficits in nutrition. [/ QUOTE ] Problems yes, but not deficits in teh way I was saying.
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#97
10-25-2005, 05:04 PM
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Re: veganism
Most vegans smell like patchouli....ewww. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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#99
10-25-2005, 05:05 PM
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Re: veganism
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Does it make you feel better to call him a vegetarian? [/ QUOTE ] I am not saying that at all. I don't have to call him anything. If someone claims to be a vegan and they are a truely vegan then I would have no problem. All I am saying is I don't think you can be half vegan you either are vegan or you are not.
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#100
10-25-2005, 05:06 PM
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Re: veganism
I think you're missing some critical things. First, this is not an argument about coming to an understanding. It is an argument whose purpose is winning. It's a foregone conclusion that understandings will not be changed. Therefore, dirty tricks are the name of the game. Winning ugly is good.
This is why arguing about veganism isn't the whole point, and arguing about someone's true integrity and really following/believing in veganism is up for grabs. Bring up other virtues and their lack or accomplishment of them is a red herring you yourself are throwing into the mix. On that one, you have to turn the finger around and point it at yourself. The following I think is more or less fine: [ QUOTE ] People always think that there's some implicit statement of superiority when someone says they're a vegan, and they automatically look for some way to hurt their credibility, rather than actually thinking about the issue. [/ QUOTE ] But here you seem to wander off into the deep end and lose focus and intelligibility: [ QUOTE ] The ignorant try to attack ideas by bringing up actions. So many people treat these arguments like elections. [/ QUOTE ] I'm neither for nor against veganism, by the way, though I think vegetarianism is a very good idea, even including the moral aspects. However, I think again that you are misunderstanding what is going on and falling into the same trap as you accuse others of: not realizing that this subject is basically fit for tirades and stupid arguments that are all about winning, not about coming to a new or better understanding about anything. The OP asked for weapons to play a game, not for personal enlightenment.
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