It's Come Down to Andy Fox vs Peter666

[Peter666]

If you were a scientist who inspected a supposed miracle and came to the conclusion that it was, wouldn't you join that Church afterwards? Besides, I already pointed out McCrone too who was also independant.

Basically, we have come to the point where the main thrust of your argument is a mass conspiracy perpetrated by members of the Catholic Church and select scientists. And it has not only been going on for a little while, but centuries. That's some serious calumny and the burden of proof is on you now. We have many examples of miracles approved by the Church, so the ability to finally catch the Catholics should be relatively easy.

Maybe you will find some hiding in Area 51.

[Peter666]

Wouldn't verifying the conclusions be even more important than verifying the facts?

But as we see from the scientific photographs, there is ample evidence showing the facts as well. Conspiracy?

[bearly]

i promised myself i wouldn't fall into the trap---i backslid. after reading all the posts in this thread i can safely say that i have a better idea why a cantaloupe doesn't do something than why god doesn't. if i asked myself why my car doesn't start, i would need to know something (quite a lot, really) about cars if i wanted to fix the matter myself. how can we ask "why doesn't god do something?" w/out first determining what this thing is we are expecting to be 'doing the doing'. c'mon guys, i know it takes a long time to do it right----but do you really enjoy this intellectual self-indulgence?..........b

[andyfox]

Wouldn't verifying the conclusions be even more important than verifying the facts?

Maybe not. A conclusion from an incorrect fact would be a logical, but wrong conclusion.

"But as we see from the scientific photographs, there is ample evidence showing the facts as well. Conspiracy?"

Dunno. Maybe what he looked at was indeed what the pictures show. Maybe what he looked at wasn't the relics. Maybe the pictures aren't pictures of what he looked at.

[andyfox]

"If you were a scientist who inspected a supposed miracle and came to the conclusion that it was, wouldn't you join that Church afterwards?"

Yes I would. But if I were a scientist who was already a believer, it might affect my conclusion.

I am neither a scientist nor an expert in this area. The Catholic Church's claims about the Eucharist are pretty fantastic, much more fantastic than he possibility that they are claiming something for these relics that they know is false. And maybe some really do believe it, as you do.

I haven't been to Area 51. I was in Naples this summer; too bad I hand't been aware of this at that time, I surely would have liked to have seen it with my own eyes.

[grandgnu]

I saw a visage of the dark lord Satan in my toast. The end is nigh, repent, REPENT! [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[MCS]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, Naples has twenty other vials that do the same thing. The most likely explanation for this is that the people in the region were in on the ingredients and knew how to make it seem that blood could turn back into liquid. This can be done scientifically. Certain components using chalk and hydrated iron chloride and salt water can form hard lumps that liquefy when shaken or when they get a little warm.

The reliquary containing Januarius’ blood is always vigorously moved while carried in procession and the excuse is for the blood to be seen running in the vial. The times it fails to liquefy are caused by the relic not getting enough shaking. (BTW, Cardinal Michele Giordano who carried the vial of Januarius since 1987 and thereby effected the miracle, was indicted after admitting that he gave a relative $800,000 that was used in a loansharking scheme. He has also been under investigation for other dubious activities.) The bubbles in the blood seen in 1970 by Dr Georgio Giorgi show that it is not real blood.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please cite your sources. Seeing this online without your having mentioned it makes you look very bad.

[Zeno]

Speaking of pictures here is a very interesting link Optical Effects

This website is an excellent source that shows many common optical effects from clouds and sun etc. On the left side click on the menu to see various effects, especially the one on Water Droplets and check out Corona and other optical effects.

Should note that young children are keen observers and no doubt noticed that strange and unusual lighting patterns occur during partly sunny and rainy days. It is not unusual at all. The observers, most fervent believers, and under strong suggestions and expecting to see something and mass excitement the Fatmia ‘miracle’ is easily explained.

Now if there were reports that the people at Fatima saw the Virgin Mary in a semi-diaphanous red Bill Blass sequined strapless evening gown, sipping on a vodka martini, and smoking a Churchill size Cuban cigar – then that would be a miracle. Or so it would seem.

-Zeno, Bounding into Glory with a clean and sinless heart.

[andyfox]

I didn't know I was obligated to cite sources. I knew nothing about St. Januarius until mentioned by Peter666, so I looked into it on the internet.

But I'll cite sources in any future posts on the subject.

[MCS]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't know I was obligated to cite sources.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just think it's good practice in general to give credit to others when appropriate.

Part of this is because sources you cite may appear to be more or less credible than Andy Fox Summarizing Facts He Has Learned, which affects how seriously we should take your argument.