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#91
10-13-2005, 03:12 PM
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Re: If There Is No God
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] ...understanding of how to measure spirituality or morality [/ QUOTE ] If you measure something you do so by a standard. Measurement in morality is by a moral standard. [/ QUOTE ] Some things may be measurable just not measurable by us at present. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] No; if math exists with or without God, that does not necessarily exclude the possibility of God. [/ QUOTE ] I define God as the Being Who existed before anything else and created everything else that exists. If anything else exists apart from God's creating activity He isn't God.To posit math as self-existent is to deny God. [/ QUOTE ] Even taking your definition at face value does not preclude the possibility of mathematics having the property of capability of independent existence. The obvious counterexample is that of God creating something with the property of henceforth being able to exist independently of him: God could have created mathematics as a permanent and immutable framework which would be capable of existing even in his absence. God could also have created a moral or spiritual framework with the capacity to exist on its own. Alternatively, if God does not exist, these frameworks might still exist. Mathematical truths clearly exist even without humans to observe that 2 bananas + 2 bananas = 4 bananas. Just because we humans cannot at present so clearly see, define or measure a spiritual or moral framework does not prove that it does not exist. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] ... Just because you or I can't determine it empirically at present [/ QUOTE ] You can never determine morality empirically, by definition. Morality is "ought". Ought can't be measured scientifically. [/ QUOTE ] Change your "never" to "at present" and I would agree for the most part. Just for fun, imagine that at the end of the universe, time stands still and all events are somehow retraced and reconstructed, and analyzed exhaustively. Perhaps then every act that ever occurred could be assigned a measurement based on its morality and spirituality. 
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#92
10-13-2005, 03:36 PM
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Re: If There Is No God
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Ok forget the christiainity thing, perhaps it is a hoax. I cant be sure. But the supernatural creation of humans does make sense. I cannot bring myself to fathom that we were invented my cell evolution. Indy [/quote You should try reading some Richard Dawkins. You would be amazed. Or, read this Evolution
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#93
10-13-2005, 05:13 PM
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Re: If There Is No God
As usual, you have failed to comprehend the whole argument. I already stated that the person in the state of grave pain WANTS to die. This is the state where they have not gone crazy yet due to the pain, but nevertheless cannot focus on anything else but ending the pain by any means necessary.
Now you may answer the two questions I posed in this situation. And speaking of intellectual honesty, I do not recall you answering me as to what is the rational distinction between two men sodomizing each other versus two brothers. Or maybe you approve of both.
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#96
10-13-2005, 06:10 PM
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Re: If There Is No God
Why are you, and everybody else for that matter, ignoring the second part of my post, The Not Ready Lament? That was what I want discussed. The first part was self evident and not nearly as interesting or important.
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#97
10-13-2005, 06:43 PM
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Re: If There Is No God
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Why are you, and everybody else for that matter, ignoring the second part of my post, The Not Ready Lament? That was what I want discussed. The first part was self evident and not nearly as interesting or important. [/ QUOTE ]Perhaps because people need to be brought up to speed that physcology is an important aspect of the science of ethics. It also appears the religious people of all sorts, tend to examine all other religions skeptically but don't examine their own with the same ammount of skepticism. Mainly because the costs of it being wrong(real and percieved) are far greater than the benefits of being correct. It may in fact be unethical to try to convince someone that God doesn't exist. However, in may be ethical to convince someone that the percieved benefits of god aren't real and can be fulfilled in other ways, and the real benefits of god aren't needed. Of course there is a distinct possiblity that ehtics don't exist.
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#98
10-13-2005, 06:47 PM
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Re: If There Is No God
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Why are you, and everybody else for that matter, ignoring the second part of my post, The Not Ready Lament? That was what I want discussed. The first part was self evident and not nearly as interesting or important. [/ QUOTE ] Obviously, the first part wasn't self evident. The first part is also a question of interest to many. The study of NotReady interests only a few of us. chez
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#99
10-13-2005, 06:55 PM
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Re: If There Is No God
[ QUOTE ]
Why are you, and everybody else for that matter, ignoring the second part of my post, The Not Ready Lament? That was what I want discussed. The first part was self evident and not nearly as interesting or important. [/ QUOTE ] Perhaps because you have it reversed? The 1st part is contentious, interesting and important. The second part is irrelevant, uninteresting and see below. The second part was -- [ QUOTE ] Why he then screws it all up by insisting that the god in question is so narrowly and precisely defined that the vast majority of even highly religous scholarly monotheists say he is in error, is beyond me. [/ QUOTE ] If you asked 'How' he screws it up that would be interesting in a logic101 review way, but why should I be interested in "Why" he screws it up, I'm not trying to fix him. In a forum of debating ideas ( if that's what this is) there seems no need to turn it into a pyschology forum and end up analyzing the man and not the idea. maybe that helps explain the interest in your 1st part and non-interest in the second, luckyme
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#100
10-13-2005, 07:51 PM
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Re: Why ?
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You are watching a film. The main character is murdered. The main character is an old illiterate woman in Tibuktu. (In other words, someone as far away from your situation, as posible.) You feel awe and regret. Why ? [/ QUOTE ] Empathy. I'm pretty sure DS's "disgust" is more or less a form of empathy as well.
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