New Israeli/Palestinian peace plan

[Cyrus]

"I think the Jews have been oppressed historically by Arabs--even Mohammed led military a campaign against them, if I'm not mistaken."

You refuse to understand the colossal difference (how many words should I use to ram this through? "Colossal" not enough?) between the European oppression of Jews which consisted of systematic pogroms, with hundreds of thousands of deaths, before the Nazis came about, and the sporadic, nationalistic mistreatment, including the occasional war, conducted in the greater Middle East area -- which area, in case you heard of The Diaspora, was rather empty of Jews to begin with.

If you want to persist to your completely erroneous and historically false point of view, you are entitled to it. I will not add another word about this.

"Regarding racism: there are two types, one far more pernicious than the other. If a group wants to exterminate another race, or oppress another race, that is offensive in nature. However, if as in the case of the Jews wanting their own little space due to having been oppressed throughout the ages, that is defensive in nature. The two are quite different."

You are confusing the reason with the result. Please read this carefully : Every form of modern racism, and that begins from centuries ago, has its theoretical bases on defensive purposes! Aryans want to defend themselves against pollution by inferior blood; Serbs want to defend themselves against the West's injustice and Croatian atrocities; Croats vice versa; Black American racism wants to defend Blacks against Whitey; White American racism wants to defend the Whites' earned place in society (and the White Woman); etc, etc, etc.

So the reasons are generally cloaked in some glorious need to "Defend a Race" -- not to blatantly impose its will on the rest. (Some bull about "Divine Destiny" is usually invoked to link Defense with Supremacy, in most racisms.) The result however, is always oppressive, always barbaric, always murderous. And Zionism, a clearly supremacist ideology in its Reformed strain, is a trivial example of a racist ideology.

[MMMMMM]

I'm not refusing to acknowledge a difference between the oppressions of the Jews at the hands of the Europeans vs. the Arabs--of course there are differences. I'm just saying I more or less understand the Jews' wishing to be insulated from non-Jews since so many different types of non-Jews have so badly mistreated them.

Just because group A may have oppressed the Jews more than did group B, doesn't mean that the Jews would (or should) want to live with group B--especially if group B currently wishes them great harm.

I agree that the Zionist philosophy is less than ideal. However, when all those other barbarians (read "pogrom Russians", Nazis, Islamofascists--and their like-minded though less activist successors) stop oppressing the Jews and wishing them great ill--when that happens, then I'll say I no longer understand the Jewish desire to live apart.

Your point about the seeds of racism staring defensively and the end result generally being bad has some merit. However can't you also see why the Jews would want to be insulated from others, since others have so long oppressed them and/or currently wish them ill?

[nicky g]

"Human Rights Watch has strongly condemned this custom. "

LOL! See what Human Rights Watch has to say about Israeli treatment of Palestinians. It's not very positive.

About 1/6 of the current population of Israel consists of Israeli Arabs, the descendants of the minority of Palestinians who were not foces out in 1948 and after. There are very very few attacks on Israelis from these people (despite the shooting of them at unarmed protests, the removal of their representatives from the Knesset etc). These people clearly don't want to kill Jews or drive Israel into the sea. The populations of the West Bank and Gaza hate Israel because of the illegal occupation and the refusal to deal with the Palestinaain refugee problem in any way, and not because they are irrational antisemites. The coexistence of Israeli Arabs with Jews in Israel clearly demostrates that a multicultural state would not be suicidal for Israeli Jews. The fact that the return of those refugees who wanted to come back would prevent Zionists from having their ideal state is not a good enough reasn to deny these people their rights.

[IrishHand]

the two cultures are very different with the Jewish culture being far more advanced and rational
At least now you're starting to be more honest with your biases and prejudices. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[MMMMMM]

nicky, I'm just saying I understand why the Israelis would want an insular, separated state. That's what I was saying in the sub-thread with Cyrus too. I'm saying I understand it and can't really blame them for wanting to live apart. I'm not saying that everytrhing they do is right, or trhat all Palestinians wish them ill. However enough Palestinians and Arabs do wish them great ill that their desire for separation is quite understandable.

[MMMMMM]

I don't think it's indicative of bias to recognize facts;-)

Suppose some tribe still exists somewhere which practices human sacrifice, cannibalism and black magic. To say that their culture is less advanced and less rational is bias?

Likewise, although the gulf may be less, the Islamic/Arab cultures today are less advanced, more superstitious and less rational than Western cultures. Ideologically they are, to a large extent, still mired in the 7th century.

[B-Man]

The populations of the West Bank and Gaza hate Israel...

At least now you are starting to recognize some facts.

and not because they are irrational antisemites.

Really? Is calling Jews the sons of monkeys and pigs rational? What about teaching your children that suicide bombing is a noble act? Dressing up children as suicide bombers? Teaching that suicide bombers who kill Jews will be rewarded with 72 virgins in paradise?

What makes you the expert on the rationale for the hatred of the Palestinians toward Israel? Your statement that this isn't based on anti-semitism would be laughable if it wasn't so sickening. Take off the rose-colored glasses, Nicky.

[Cyrus]

"...although the gulf may be less, the Islamic/Arab cultures today are less advanced, more superstitious and less rational than Western cultures. Ideologically they are, to a large extent, still mired in the 7th century."

You are quite right about western culture, and that includes current jewish culture, as being more advanced than most other cultures, including the islamic religion and the arab political culture. This cannot rationally be contested.

The question then becomes one of proportion.

No, not how far backwards the others are ! (The Arabs, btw, are not in the equivalent of the 7th century, M, not by any means!)

But how far advanced are we! And how far advanced we are, will be demonstrated by how we treat those fellow contemporaries of ours that are still dragging their feet. Are we gonna treat them as Captain Cook treated the Polynesian cannibals? Or as Cortez the Aztec "barbarians"? In other words, are we gonna behave like we are still in the 15th century or so?

Or are we gonna act like we're supposed to act? Kinda like being in the, you know, 21st century? With the necessary humility, frontier-less spirit and universalism?

Guess not. So far, all the "solutions" coming out of Washington or Jerusalem are quite backward in shape, form and attitude.

[MMMMMM]

Well, as I've said, I think the Palestinians should get theior own homeland next to Israel. If Israel were to give up the occupied territories (but not return entirely to the 1967 borders, as Israel needs some of that stragetic land to thwart future pan-Arab attacks or Hizbollah attacks) and if Jordan were to give up some of the partitioned land it stole from the Palestinians, they'd have a homeland. Then the biggest problem would be the fanatical groups pledged to fight Israel eternally. These extremist groups would have to be dismantled--by force if necessary.

Regarding backwards cultures in general: I'm all for treating them with great kindness and understanding, support and openness...until they begin irrationally and fanatically attacking us. Then I believe we have to wipe out the enclaves or organizations such as al Qaeda which do, as a means of self-defense.

Something should also be done about the Saudi teaching and export of Wahabbism, which is by far one of the most backwards, virulent and aggressive ideological sects of Islam. Just what should be done I'm not entirely sure, but Wahabbism is a chief cause of the emergence of fanatical jihadism against the West.

How about we just outlaw stupidity?

[nicky g]

"What makes you the expert on the rationale for the hatred of the Palestinians toward Israel?"

None of us are experts on most of the things discussed on this board. To make up for our lack of expertise, we make arguments based on reason and logic such as those in my post, none of which you have bothered to address. Here they are again: 1. The Palestinians who live in Israel itself are clearly not anti-Israeli in the way those suffering in the occupied territories are. 2. Arabs and Palestinians were tolerant of the Jews who lived alongside them for centuries, much more tolerant than Europeans for example.

Let me add a couple of responses to what you wrote: It isn't find to hard an Israeli referring to Palestinians as dogs. Both sides are polarised and people on both sides use plenty of racist rhetoric against each other. While some Palestinians have dressed their children up as suicide bombers, all Israelis send theirs to the West Bank to kill innocent civilians and foreign journalists and peace activists. Clearly superior.

I've asked you this before, and you haven't answered: how do square your defence of Israel with the fact that a mass-murdering war criminal is its freely elected leader? Where do you get off calling Palestinians racists when Israelis are happy to be led by a genocidal racist such as Sharon, man whom any other country would have jailed for war crimes? And while we're at it, why are you so eager to seize Palestinian terrorist bombings as evidence of the inate evil and racism of all Palestinians, but happy to defend a state that was set up on the back of a campaign of, er... terrorist bombings?