Why Do Jews Reject Jesus?

[bossJJ]

Your post is a perfect example of how Christians refuse to see, never mind examine, any evidence that contradicts their beliefs, even when it's right in front of their face, because I have already addressed some of your points.

Specifically, in my post #2800098, I listed several bible verses that were either:
a.) One or more people actually had their sins atoned for without a blood sacrifice or
b.) It explicitly says something like, "repent, and God will forgive you."

King David, and the people of Ninevah, are two more examples of those whose sins were forgiven without a blood sacrifice. I suggest you go back and look up the verses from my previous post, so that you don't continue to make a fool of yourself. This link also discusses this:
www.outreachjudaism.org/response.html

Here's just a few examples from the article:
"Leviticus 5:11-13, Numbers 17:11,13 and Numbers 31:50 are examples in the Torah where atonement is procured without the shedding of blood. In Leviticus 5:11-13 the poor man may give a flour offering instead of an animal sacrifice for an atonement. Numbers 17:11-12 describes how Aaron made an atonement for the people with incense, and in Numbers 31:50 the Torah declares that the golden ornaments donated by high officers of the military who successfully defeated the Midianites were offered as an atonement as well."

Here are a few more verses for you:

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said,‘Has the LORD as great delight in burnt-offerings and sacrifice as in obedience to the voice of the LORD? Surely, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams.

Proverbs 16:6 By lovingkindness and truth iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the LORD one avoids evil.

Psalms 51:16-17 For you desire not sacrifice else I would give it. The sacrifice of God is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Isaiah 1:11-18 "What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me? says the Lord. I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed cattle. And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs, or goats...Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, Learn to do good; seek justice, reprove the ruthless, defend the orphan, plead for the widow. Come let us reason together says the Lord, `Though your sins are as scarlet, they will be white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they will be like wool, if you consent and obey..."

Psalms 69:30-31 I will praise the name of God with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving. This pleases the LORD better than an ox or bullock that has horns and hoofs.

I don't know what you think you are proving by quoting Leviticus 19:20. I'm not denying that the sacrices existed, or that people did bring them to atone for sin. When the Temple was standing, a blood sacrifice was one way, but not the only way, to atone for unintentional sins. A poor man could give a grain offering instead, and this and tons of other bible verses demonstrate that a blood sacrifice was not required. As the bible says, the blood sacrifice was only for unintentional sins, not all sins. Also, as discussed in this link below (which I already posted), only certain types of animals could be sacrificed, and human sacrifice was forbidden.
www.outreachjudaism.org/jesusdeath.html

There is no vicarious atonement in the bible. That is, each person had to repent for his own sins. The sacrifice of one person didn't atone for anybody else's sins. So jesus' alleged sacrifice was not an acceptable sacrifice in any way.

When the ancient Israelites sinned, the message of the prophets was always, "repent, return to God..." as that is was He desires when we sin. Their message was NOT "you need to bring a sacrifice in order to be forgiven."

Long before the Temple was destroyed, the prophets predicted that it would be destroyed and that the Jews would be without it for a long time, until it is rebuilt when the real messiah comes. They said that without the Temple, prayer and repentence would atone for sin:

Hosea 14:2-3 "Take words with you, and return to the LORD. Say to Him, “Take away all iniquity; receive us graciously, for we will render for bulls the offering of our lips.”

As the article discusses, the prophets (after predicting that the Temple will be destroyed) never say that the messiah will replace the sacrifices or that believing in some dead man will atone for sin. Those christian beliefs are from paganism, not the bible. Do a searh on "Mythra". Christianity is essentially the cult of Mythra with a new name.

[bossJJ]

This article (below), while about a different topic, does also discuss how the prophets said that prayer and repentance, not a messiah, would replace the sacrificial system. Here's the relevant paragraphs:

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Yet, by what means can the Jewish people return to God? A few chapters later, Jeremiah answers this question as he outlines for his disobedient nation how they are to end their persistent backsliding. In his seventh chapter, the prophet warns his people not to place their hopes on blood sacrifices or look to The Temple of the Lord to save them. Jeremiah proclaims that these institutions cannot deliver them from their brazen sins. Rather, they must turn away from idolatry and return to God by keeping the commandments. Please take a moment and study Jeremiah’s remarkable message on atonement.



"So said the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel, “Improve your ways and your deeds, I then will allow you to dwell in this place. Do not rely on false words, saying, ‘The Temple of the Lord, The Temple of the Lord, The Temple of the Lord are they.’ If you improve your ways and your deeds, if you perform judgment between one man and his fellow man, you do not oppress the stranger, an orphan, or a widow, and you do not shed innocent blood in this place, and you do not follow other gods for your detriment. I will then allow you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave your forefathers from days of yore to eternity . . . . So says the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel, “Add your burnt offerings upon your sacrifices and eat flesh; for neither did I speak with your forefathers nor did I command them on the day I brought them out of the land of Egypt concerning a burnt offering or a sacrifice. This thing did I command them saying, ‘Listen to Me so that I am your God and you are My people, you walk in all the ways that I command you . . . .’ ” (Jeremiah 7:3-7, 21-23)



The above chapter stands as a reverberating indictment against the church’s most fundamental creeds. For example, according to Christian doctrine, man cannot merit salvation through his own repentance. Atonement comes only through the shedding of innocent blood. Throughout the seventh chapter of Jeremiah, however, the prophet proclaims the very opposite message on atonement. Over and over again, Jeremiah loudly declares that God does not want blood sacrifices but rather repentance alone for man’s grievous sins.



Finally, as we study the words of Jeremiah, attention also must be paid to what the prophet does not say. Because Jeremiah’s silence on missionary teachings is deafening, this chapter presents a serious theological problem for evangelical Christians. Why isn’t there one word throughout the prophet’s admonishment about believing in Jesus for salvation? Bear in mind that the purpose of this prophecy is to guide Jewish people who have lost their way into a sanctified relationship with the Almighty. Why didn’t Jeremiah, as he points his wayward nation in the direction of Godliness, direct the Jewish people to Jesus’ atoning death on the cross? Why did Jeremiah instead prophesy that the day will come when the Jewish people will be restored to their land as a result of their heartfelt repentance? (Jeremiah 3:14-18) According to Christian doctrine, repentance alone cannot save man from damnation. He can weep and wax forth with humble words of remorse from dawn until dusk, but without the blood of the cross, missionaries argue, there can be no forgiveness of sin. Why didn’t the prophet ever mention this foundational creed in his sermon on forgiveness or declare that the Jewish people will eventually be restored because they believed in Jesus as their Lord and Savior?



Moreover, why would Jeremiah prophesy that in this act of penitence, you will one day “call Me ‘My Father,’ and not turn away from Me”? (3:4) Why is there no mention in Jeremiah’s prophecy of the Jewish people calling out to the Son or the Holy Spirit in repentance? In short, why is there not a word mentioned throughout Jeremiah’s prophetic sermon on atonement regarding the foundational claims of Christendom? It is not only what the prophet does say, but also what he doesn’t say that draws our attention.



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http://www.outreachjudaism.org/jeremiah31.html

[bossJJ]

This article discusses the meaning of "alma" and Proverbs 30:18-20

www.outreachjudaism.org/alma.html

[ChoicestHops]

Ok, yet you completely ignored my main point:

Jeremiah 23:5

Behold, the days come, saith Yahweh, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, YAHWEH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (Heb. Tsedkenu from 6664 Tsedek).

You said that the Messiah will not be God. How can the Messiah be called God Our Righteousness then? To my knowledge Jeremiah is recognized by Jews, and this scripture is saying a King will have Yahweh's name. This means he is God, for he carries Yahweh's name. Christ's name was Yahushua, meaning God With Us. It it directly taken from Yahweh, which is the actual name for God, or "THE LORD."

[bossJJ]

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bossJJ, do you think Jesus's name (Yahushua) was his real name on earth or was it made up by Paul or Christians?

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As I said, I think it's more likely that Jesus didn't exist at all. If he did, we have no idea what his Hebrew name was; you're just making assumptions based on the Greek.


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This one is even more valid for debate, you can really just forget my first question and point:

Jeremiah 23:5

Behold, the days come, saith Yahweh, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, YAHWEH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (Heb. Tsedkenu from 6664 Tsedek).

You said that the Messiah will not be God. How can the Messiah be called God Our Righteousness then? To my knowledge Jeremiah is recognized by Jews, and this scripture is saying a King will have Yahweh's name. This means he is God, for he carries Yahweh's name. Christ's name was Yahushua, meaning God With Us. It it directly taken from Yahweh, which is the actual name for God, or "THE LORD."

http://www.eliyah.com/themessiah.html

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It so amusing when Christians quote prophecies that Jesus failed to fulfill to somehow "prove" that he was the messiah. It demonstrates that when it comes to your faith, many of you are incapable of thinking logically at all. Jesus failed to fulfill any part of that prophecy.

First, if jesus really had a virgin birth, the he wasn't a descendant of King David, because tribal lineage comes from the biological father. And if Joseph wasn't his biological father, that would also make him a bastard, another factor which would disqualify him from being the messiah. That would also mean that Mary and Jesus' real father were adulterers.

Of course, the Jewish God is not an adulterer that impregnates human woman. It's the pagan gods that did that, and the women would give birth to mangods whose blood would "save" their followers. Your beliefs are from paganism, not the bible.

Second, according to your greek testament, jesus' name was "jesus", not "tzedekenu".

Third, Israel was under Roman occupation at the time, not living in peace and safety.

Fourth, jesus (assuming he even existed) was not king of Israel, never mind ruling over the rest of the world. Sure, he's a king in the minds of delusional Christians, but the real messiah will be a real king here on earth. He will be the annointed king of Israel, and de facto ruler of the whole world.

Fifth, you somehow come to the ridiculous conclusion that if someone's name contains God's name, then that means that person really is God. How can you believe such nonsense?

Many Hebrew names contain the name of God. Here are a few examples: Elijah=Lord God, Elisha=God is salvation, Netanyahu=God gives, Jesse=the Lord is, Eli=God is, etc

Are all these people really God? Of course not, the bible says that God is one (Deut 6:4), and that He is not a man (Numbers 23:19). In the bible, there are even verses when certain people are outright referred to as God or a god. When someone or even something is a representative or reminder of God, he is often given a divine name. Some examples:
Exodus 7:1 the bible refers to Moses as God.
Psalm 82:6, Jewish judges who teach God's law are called God
Isaiah 7:10 Isaiah is referred to as God.
Jeremiah 33:16 a city (Jerusalem) is called "The Lord our Righteousness"
Genesis 33:20 an altar that Jacob erected is called God

By your "logic" all these thing and people, everyone whose name contains God's name - they all must be God!

The bible says that the messiah will be of the "seed" of David. That is, he will be a descendant of KIng David. The Hebrew word used only refers only to physical, biological children and descendants, not adopted or metaphysical children or followers. So this means that the messiah will be a human being. That's because humans give birth to other humans. That's the way it is in the real world, and in the bible. The idea that a human can give bith to a god (or God) is pagan nonsense. The bible never says anywhere that the messiah will be God, or that God will be the messiah.

[bossJJ]

I did not ignore it at all. I considered it a separate topic that should have it's own post. It's you who have failed to address any of my points, or to support any of yours.

[David Sklansky]

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

[bossJJ]

With the exception of James, it's unlikely that any of the gt authors where Jewish. They were pro-Roman Greek speakers, often extremely antisemitic, who demonstrate a near total ignorance of Judaism, Israel and Hebrew. The gospel writers have a pagan outlook, express pagan beliefs, and describe a pagan messiah, quite similar to Mythra.

In order to appeal to a wider audience, they just tried to claim that these pagan ideas were really Jewish by misquoting and distorting the Hebrew bible. For example, when Matthew mistakenly claims that Isaiah 7:14 refers to a virgin.

In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the bible that Matthew used, the word used is parthenos, which can mean either "young woman" or "virgin". One would need to understand the context in order to know which one is meant.

There are several reasons why a Jew reading this verse would understand that it refers to a "young woman" and not a "virgin":
1. - virgins never give birth anywhere in the Hebrew bible
2. - there is no prophecy that the messiah or anyone else will be born of a virgin
3. - this is obviously (to a Jew) not a messianic prophecy
4. - the woman is already pregnant

However, many pagan gods and saviors were born of virgins, so a pagan could think that it meant "virgin", and falsely assume that Jews also believe in virgin births. Matthew interpreted the verse as a pagan would, not a Jew. He did not have a Jewish background. What evidence do you have that he or any of the other gt authors were Jewish?

Even if they were, it should be obvious that just because a Jew says something, that doesn't mean that what he says (or writes) is Jewish or even true. An individual Jew can believe in all sorts of nonsense, and he can convert to another religion if he wants. That doesn't make his beliefs Jewish or compatible with Judaism. If it did, then many contradictory beliefs would all be "true". Of course that's not possible. For example, communism was founded by a Jew, but that doesn't mean that communism is Jewish.

Christianity contradicts the Hebrew bible on virtually every major theological issue. In claiming that Torah laws no longer need to be observed, it denies the whole Torah, the essence of Judaism. There is absolutely nothing Jewish about it. Since Christians believe that Jesus is God, and we don't believe he is, we don't even worship the same God.

[ChoicestHops]

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I did not ignore it at all. I considered it a separate topic that should have it's own post. It's you who have failed to address any of my points, or to support any of yours.


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I don't have the religious knowledge to address any of your posts. Im not religious. You came into this topic sitting on a pedastal berrating Christians about how ignorant and stupid they are. I would think if it's as easy as you say it is to discount Christ, then thare are alot of philosophical people with PhD's in religious studies who must simply be crazy for believing in Christianity. You come into the thread making it sound like it's so easy to discount the concept of Christianity, and I and obviously other millions of people would disagree with you.

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First, if jesus really had a virgin birth, the he wasn't a descendant of King David, because tribal lineage comes from the biological father. And if Joseph wasn't his biological father, that would also make him a bastard, another factor which would disqualify him from being the messiah. That would also mean that Mary and Jesus' real father were adulterers.

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Well there's always loopholes. Jesus said he was God. He said before Abraham, he was the I AM.

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Of course, the Jewish God is not an adulterer that impregnates human woman. It's the pagan gods that did that, and the women would give birth to mangods whose blood would "save" their followers. Your beliefs are from paganism, not the bible.

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Yes, I have read up on the paganism and Christianity roots and/or connections and similarities. However, the jewish God as depicted in the Old Testament is someone who will punish generations of innocents for a concept of original sin there forefathers commmitted. Not including Adam and Eve, I believe he punished 4 generations because of a sin. That's fair.

The Jewish god also had laws where you to were kill your mother or father if they tried to get you to stop believing. If your mother starts to not follow the coveneant you are supposed to stone her to death. Purge the evil.

A woman who menstrates also must purge the evil. After the seventh day of the menstral pollution, he must go to the church with two doves for a sacrifice. We must keep these laws, as if you don't and you are engaged to a woman another man will rape her (Deut 30). Or to put it bluntly this is a god who loves to take delight and ruining and destroying you for not keeping the law (Dt 28:63, 27). Obviously Jesus and the jewish god are pretty different.

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Third, Israel was under Roman occupation at the time, not living in peace and safety.

Fourth, jesus (assuming he even existed) was not king of Israel, never mind ruling over the rest of the world. Sure, he's a king in the minds of delusional Christians, but the real messiah will be a real king here on earth. He will be the annointed king of Israel, and de facto ruler of the whole world.

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C'mon now, this is supposed to happen in the second coming.

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Exodus 7:1 the bible refers to Moses as God.


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Wrong. God says that he was like a god to pharoah, since Moses was basically the mediator.

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Psalm 82:6, Jewish judges who teach God's law are called God

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Wrong. They are called "gods" that will fall like every other man. Please tell me you don't take this passage the way I think you do. They are gods because they rule the earth, they are not GOD.

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Isaiah 7:10 Isaiah is referred to as God.

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Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz. That's what 7:10 is, so maybe you know something that I dont.

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Genesis 33:20 an altar that Jacob erected is called God

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Big difference. Someone who has the name of God is different that an altar or place. I thought this is why Jesus had to leave the temple because he said he was the great I AM, and this was a huge sin in the time and he was supposed to be stoned for it.

[ChoicestHops]

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In claiming that Torah laws no longer need to be observed, it denies the whole Torah, the essence of Judaism

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Forgive my ignorance - serious question. It's probably obvious you dont eat certain kinds of seafood. Do Jewish people still make women who menstrate go to the church and have a sacrifice to atone for it?

If Im wrong about anything what I said, pleace correct me. As I said Im not near as estudious in this field as you.