GREG RAYMER= OVERATTED ON 2+2??

[VoxGibson]

Generally you don't avoid disasterous situations by going all in with underdogs.....

Raymer doesnt suck at poker, but by know means should he be compared to the likes of negreanu and others that place in tournaments on a very regular basis...

Raymer was lucky... very very lucky, nothing wrong with that, but i don't expect to see to much more of him in the future of tourney poker.....

except maybe some sort of "table of champions" "Best of the best" sort of thing....

But yes everyone can worship him like they did moneymaker, then the next year speak about how he got lucky....
rinse and repeat

And yes, lets ban anyone who has an opinion in this forum, because i really just want to read about math all freakin day...

Zaxx rocks

[Spladle Master]

Just for the record, Raymer was never all-in as an underdog (on TV, anyways). He put others all-in as more than a 2-1 dog only twice that I saw.

Nobody is comparing him to Daniel Negreanu.

Negreanu has gotten lucky in every tournament he ever won. Nothing wrong with that.

Poker is more about math than anything else. If you don't want to read about it, don't expect to improve.

[VoxGibson]

in an earlier post someone had actually compared him to the likes of negreanu, everyone who wins anything gets lucky at some point....

and I have a thorough understanding of math, and i love math dearly, i just appreciate the ability to read more in these forums than people asking whether or not they have positive EV for playing specific hands specific ways...

You have takin my post completely out of context...

[VoxGibson]

and to increase the amount of flaming that will occur based on my previous post....

I love the teachings of MIKE CARRO

www.poker1.com

[Gamblor]

My previous comment about Zaxx's possible bias is not unwarranted. If he wants to criticize 2+2ers for favoring Fossilman, then he should be open to the same criticism.


Fine.

Then what difference does it make if Arieh is Jewish or not?

[nubs]

Resentment of another mans' achievement is the hallmark of a second rater.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
Then what difference does it make if Arieh is Jewish or not?

[/ QUOTE ]
It makes a difference, in the context of this thread, if Zaxx overrates Arieh because he is Jewish. Zaxx claims that Arieh is a substantially better player than Fossilman and that many 2+2ers overrate Fossilman. As I described earlier, there is really no objective basis for saying that Arieh is that much better than Fossilman. So I suggested that maybe Zaxx overrates Arieh, thus making him hypocritical for saying that 2+2ers overrate Fossilman.

[zaxx19]

People, it is really sad how this thread degenerated to such a degree that I found myself making fun of anyone be they Raymer or someone else who regularly posts here. Ill take this opportunity to apologize for the last comments as they were meant not to be directed towards Raymer, but that ahole who constantly tried to bait me into some flaming war...I guess he won bc I made an idiotic comment and am sorry...
That being said I think it is quite sad that by just posting a message that posed a simple question I found myself being attacked in all sorts of ways by all sorts of people, most of whom it appears never even read the original thread. I NEVER said Raymer was a poor player ;on the contrary I said he was an excellent amateur,(certainly much more skilled and accomplished than myself) who played fearlessly and won the WSOP in very stirring and dramatic fasion by basically bulldozing the best field in poker. I also posed the question:is Raymer overatted on this board? Given that Raymer is discussed-sited more than every other pro on here I believe this is an understandable question .It could have been broached in a civil and lucid manner but instead a cadre of Raymer supporters took a wildly defensive postion and chose too attack me and anybody else who suggested Raymer might even be overatted on 2+2. I am left to believe people would prefer to either dump on me or avoid the question entirely because it is quite obvious what conclusion would be reached in even the most elementary examination of the facts. Im glad Raymer has made such a great contribution to 2+2 for that he should be lauded; but if half the posters here are going to continually bash players like Arieh and Williams(who I hold in higher regard than Raymer)and then summarily stick their heads in the sand when Raymer misplays hands then im going to continue to point out the hypocrisy of many on the board.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi zaxx19:

Before anyone ever heard of the "Fossilman" he was well known on these forums and had earned everyone's respect by the posts that he made. In fact, Greg was one of our original posters all the way back in 1996. In addition, Greg has spent a lot of his time here posting only to help someone else understand a concept or a play that they had trouble with. So if you really want to answer your question accurately, I suggest you go through our archives and do some reading (and studying). I would be very surprised if you don't learn a lot.

Best wishes,
Mason

[zaxx19]

Raymer actually does provide advice in a very very readable prose and with a simple logic that can be digested by intermediate players such as myself. Bravo for him. His book might become a great poker treatise who knows... Of course none of this has anything to do with the original comments in this thread which related to Raymer's PLAY(especially as compared to Williams' and Arieh's)