Bob Dole Weighs In

[cardcounter0]

Sounds like a plea for french loving liberal socialized medicine. Those veterans should pay for private health insurance like true Americans. Lazy liberal "make the state care for me" pussies.

[adios]

Maybe the Vets are sore about these statements:

From the transcript of Kerry's testimony:

I am here as one member of the group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony.

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

Statements where he is stating that he is representing all Viet Nam Vets. Perhaps these Vets have a problem with Kerry representing them and they don't agree with Kerry's assessment.

I would like to talk to you a little bit about what the result is of the feelings these men carry with them after coming back from Vietnam. The country doesn't know it yet, but it has created a monster, a monster in the form of millions of men who have been taught to deal and to trade in violence, and who are given the chance to die for the biggest nothing in history; men who have returned with a sense of anger and a sense of betrayal which no one has yet grasped.

Perhaps these Vets feel these statements are inaccurate.

Anyway he uses the term "We veterans" a lot and from his initial portion of his testimony he claims to be representing all Veterans. That's my take on what the Vets are pissed about. Why don't you ask them, they've got a web site, email address, and discussion boards.

[Utah]

Please provide evidence. Are you referring to the Winter Soldier investigation? That was shown to be a huge fraud.

[andyfox]

It's clear to me Kerry said that he was representing "those veterans" in Vietnam Veterans Agasinst the War, not all veterans. "These men" refers to the 150 whose testimony he had heard in Detroit. I don't read it as saying he was representing all veterans at all.

Regardless, there are many who still view those who opposed the war, especially those who fought there and then "turned" after coming back, as traitors. Note that one poster put up a picture (can't remember if it is this thread or another) of Kerry with Jane Fonda. Hanoi Jane and Hanoi John. If not for the anti-war movement, we would have won. I imagine that's what O'Neill, for example, thinks, since he was recruited and coached by the Nixon administration to counter what Kerry was saying in 1971.

As you know, I'm not a big Kerry fan. But this was powerful, eloquent, thoughtful stuff. If only he were like this today.

[andyfox]

You said you thought that perhaps Kerry was saying he had witnessed the events first-hand. He did not. He's saying he heard the testimony from veterans as the Winter Soldier Investigation.

There is no defense of United States conduct of the war in Vietnam. It was, to borrow a phrase from one of our illustrious hosts, a crime against humanity. And those reporting the facts were often accused of treason. When Morely Safer did the piece with the soldier who was burning a hut and, when asked why, said that in order to save the village it had become necessary to destroy it, LBJ tried to have "that Canadian" [Safer] deported. When Nixon heard that New York Times reporter Seymour Hersh was reporting a massacre in My Lai, he screamed that it was those damn disloyal "New York Jews" who were responsible.

The "respectable" opposition to the war (Walter Cronkite, William Fulbright, David Halberstam, George Ball) turned on the war because they thought it was a mistake in priorities or unwinnable or counterproductive. It went beyond the pale to voice a moral opposition, to allege war crimes.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
Please provide evidence. Are you referring to the Winter Soldier investigation? That was shown to be a huge fraud.

[/ QUOTE ]

This article address that well I think:

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=244#

[cardcounter0]

"I would like to talk to you a little bit about what the result is of the feelings these men carry with them after coming back from Vietnam. The country doesn't know it yet, but it has created a monster, a monster in the form of millions of men who have been taught to deal and to trade in violence, and who are given the chance to die for the biggest nothing in history; men who have returned with a sense of anger and a sense of betrayal which no one has yet grasped."

Just wait until all those vets from Iraq get back. They have seen a lot of the senseless violence that the Vietnam vets saw. If you don't recall, shortly after the war there were a lot of cases of someone walking into a McDonalds or something and just gunning people down. I predict in the next couple of years you are going to have a lot of cases of people 'snapping' and randomly killing people.

What Kerry says above was true then, and I think we are going to see the same thing again shortly.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]

As you know, I'm not a big Kerry fan. But this was powerful, eloquent, thoughtful stuff. If only he were like this today.

[/ QUOTE ]

How true.

There was an op-ed in NYT saying the very same thing today.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/24/opinion/24brooks.html

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
In response to people raising concerns over the implications of the USA PATRIOT act, Ashcroft made several statements suggesting that if you disagree with the administration you support terrorists. Just a couple of examples are:

"To those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists."

John Ashcroft said, in response to a critic of the Patriot Act, "your tactics only aid terrorists, for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve. They give ammunition to America's enemies, and pause to America's friends."

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that is certainly extreme hyperbole. But I dont think that Ashcroft was implying that the critic was a pinko liberal commie fag as cardcounter posted. In (overly) dramatc fashion I think Ashcroft was saying that A) Patriot Act wasnt taking away liberties on the scale that critics claimed and B) that not supporting the administration in the period following 9/11 might embolden terrorists. Certainly A is debatable but I dont seen much wrong with B.

[Cyrus]

"I don't care if I'm in a swing state. Ralph gets my vote again."

This is completely wrong.

I'll let Mason elaborate.