150/300 bellagio hand

[PokerBob]

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Because the opponent in BK's situation is unnecessarily slowing the game down.


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He's not! He just announced what he had!

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and we are supposed to believe him? wtf?

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Yes. You say "one pair." If he says "good" or raps the table, you flip your hand or flash your Ace. If he then shows a better hand, you punch him in the face.

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i see.

[elindauer]

Hi El Diablo,

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Is this something you would do? If not, please explain how it is different than BK's situation.

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No, it's not something that I would do. Then again, I wouldn't consider someone a dick for doing it either. My main objection is to the idea that bike is a dick for acting the way he did. I don't see it that way.

Your example to me is a little different because the rule allowing players to see mucked hands is designed to prevent collusion, while the showdown order is not. If you ask to see a mucked hand, you are taking advantage of the rule to gain information, clearly not in the spirit of the game. However, simply waiting for hands to be shown down in the correct order is not gaming the system to gain information. It is simply taking the information the rules give you by right.

I don't get too worked up about people asking to see mucked cards though, as there is obviously massive confusion over the point of this rule. If everyone agrees that all hands can be seen just for information, then I have no problem with that.

Of course, everyone can agree that any random action makes someone a jerk. If everyone agrees not to raise preflop in a game, and then somebody does it, well, you can look at that guy as a jerk. I'm simply saying that to me, singling out this action by bike as something that makes him a jerk is no more or less valid than when the tight passives get pissed when you sit down and start raising all the time, ruining their comfortable weak tight game.

Do you get angry when someone chooses to slowplay their hand, deceptively tricking you into losing extra money? No, of course not. That's the game, those are the rules. They don't have to raise aces in EP. But then why do you get angry when someone follows the rules of a showdown? It's all the same to me.

-eric

[Ulysses]

FWIW, e, I don't care if someone asks to see every mucked hand. I just flip mine over and show them. I really don't even care if they slowroll me, though I will store that piece of info and f with them later if given the right opportunity. I definitely don't get angry if someone does what bike did. I just consider them a different kind of player, one who doesn't consider what we play to be a gentleman's game.

[NLSoldier]

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I just consider them a different kind of player, one who doesn't consider what we play to be a gentleman's game.


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I would put villian in that category of players before I would put BK in it. But I dont think either players actions are near as bad as abusing the IWTSTH rule or slow rolling.

FWIW I handle taht situation just like BK did.

[brick]

I think you're confused about when it is time to be gentle as opposed when it is time to be a man.

[bobbyi]

I can't believe how many people disagree with Diablo's position here. In the game, there are social conventions including conventions about the showdown. Obviously, you aren't forced to follow them. But if you don't, you are being somewhat of a dick, just like with most other social conventions. Everyone responding to the basic concept civility by saying "nuh uh, you're not the boss of me, I can do whatever I want" are just demonstrating their immaturity. We all know (and aren't impressed) that you technically haven't violated any rule when you slowroll people and ask to see mucked hands and take the last bus seat before the pregnant woman can sit down and cut people off in traffic and curse at old ladies for walking down the street too slowly. But is that really the sort of person you want to be? Is that the sort of impact you want to have on the world?

Please note that this isn't directed at bk because the specific trangression here was (in my opinion) minor, but at the general attitude towards poker and life that people are presenting in the discussion.

[bobbyi]

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Is this something you would do? If not, please explain how it is different than BK's situation.

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Because the opponent in BK's situation is unnecessarily slowing the game down.

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By refusing to play his role in the traditional showdown dance, BK slowed down the game.

[Ulysses]

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I just consider them a different kind of player, one who doesn't consider what we play to be a gentleman's game.


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I would put villian in that category of players before I would put BK in it. But I dont think either players actions are near as bad as abusing the IWTSTH rule or slow rolling.

FWIW I handle taht situation just like BK did.

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Kids.

[NLSoldier]

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I just consider them a different kind of player, one who doesn't consider what we play to be a gentleman's game.


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I would put villian in that category of players before I would put BK in it. But I dont think either players actions are near as bad as abusing the IWTSTH rule or slow rolling.

FWIW I handle taht situation just like BK did.

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Kids.

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[brick]

Bobby,
If everyone at the table understands that this is how a showdown should work, then by all means, be cool, do what everybody else is doing. No need to be a jerk. I am suprised that this ettique is accepted to the point where we can compare people who don't join in, to someone who totally doesn't care about other people.

Sometimes If someone abused the IWTSTH rule I explain that it's not cool to use that rule unless you suspect I'm cheating.
Should I similarly explain to people that if I say "I missed King high", I want them to turn over a better hand so I can quietly muck, because this is proper ettique?
I think this is the heart of the matter.