My brother the Solider

[DVaut1]

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This discussion has gotten way out of hand, anyway. Part of this is my fault, as I should never have even responded to attempts to bring in other countries and their militaries, and other time frames. I am talking about today's AMERICAN military, and only today's American military. The militaries of most other nations, and from other eras, are not comparable.

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Just to clarify, though - so American soldiers, as a part of 'today's AMERICAN military' - should not opt out of wars they feel are immoral?

If you (niss or anyone else) feels that way, I think that is troubling, give that it seems like you're conceding that soldiers can legitimately opt-out of wars in other times and places.

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This discussion has gotten way out of hand, anyway. Part of this is my fault, as I should never have even responded to attempts to bring in other countries and their militaries, and other time frames. I am talking about today's AMERICAN military, and only today's American military. The militaries of most other nations, and from other eras, are not comparable.

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Just to clarify, though - so American soldiers, as a part of 'today's AMERICAN military' - should not opt out of wars they feel are immoral?

If you (niss or anyone else) feels that way, I think that is troubling, give that it seems like you're conceding that soldiers can legitimately opt-out of wars in other times and places.

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There is law on this, and they should comply with the law. That is the contract they made with the United States when they enlisted. If they meet the criteria for conscientious objector, then they are allowed to "opt out". I find it hard, though, to believe that anyone that enlists can seriously contend that they are conscientious objectors, but maybe that can happen. I am not familiar with that area of the law well enough to foreclose the possibility.

It is not for our soldiers to make individual determinations as to whether a particular war is right, wrong, moral, or immoral. Of course, they can do so and face the consequences. There is good reason why it is against military law for a soldier to disregard an illegal order. The decisions about wars are made by our duly-elected officials. In a democracy, those decisions are to be honored by the men and women in uniform.

[andyfox]

"And it's tough to respond seriously with that avatar staring at me."

Blame Dynasty. He put it in without permission.

But I like it, so I'm keeping it.

However, I just started a thread on the Science, Math, Philosophy forum about von Neumann and preventive war. I guess it must be really hard to take it seriously over there.

[andyfox]

O.B.L. is a very rich man and could easily have lived a life of luxury and making more money, as many in his family have done. He has obviously chosen a different path based, one would think, on strong convictions. Demented, but strong.

As for your two men: if the person who believed the war is just had volunteered and fought because it was, say, a war against Israel, and he believed that the war was just because the Jews are evil and out to control the world, would you still say he is worthy of respect? Or how about the man who refused to deploy: what if he refused because he felt our government was evil, controlled by, say, the Vatican, and the war was part of a plan for Catholicism to control the world. Still worthy of respect?

[ACPlayer]

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I think that everyone here can agree that we respect the sacrifice that our soldiers are making, living and dying in service to their country

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I disagree. At least in the sense that they should be singled out for "respect".

They are getting paid to do a job. They have evaluated the wager and made a decision that it is positive EV for them to enlist in service and that the risk of dying is worth the salary they get. Note that many of them never expected to have their bluff called. In previous threads many patriots have responded by saying that their evaluation is that it is not worth going to war for them -- and these patriots may well have a flag flying in their front yards and yellow ribbons of trees as their contributions.

The soldier's choice is no different than those who accept to walk on steel beams hundreds of feet above the earth to build a sky scraper, those who choose to sign up with Haliburton for work in Iraq today or those who choose invest and start a business in Ames Iowa.

The notion of a "special" respect is simply a tool that we a a society use to keep the salaries down and to generate a "nationalist" us against them feeling.

[Cyrus]

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We're still in Afghanistan and people are still being shot at, which means there must be some [terrorists] there.

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Brilliant logic.

Invade country A for objective X. Objective X has nothing to do with occupying country A.

Then deduce that, since "people are still shooting at you (the invader)", objective X is valid.

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Whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]That's more like it. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]