100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..

[raptor517]

ok, first off, about the check raise.. do you REALLY think i dont HONESTLY understand the reasoning and benefits of making a check raise to around 75 here? i mean seriously people. do you honestly think i havent taken apart this hand already, and looked at every option provided?

where in my arguments, did i ever say anyone was completely wrong. (maybe i did at some point, show me please if i did..). yes, i argue. yes, im aggressive. thats my style. it works for me. i posted this hand to START controversy. thats why i make threads like this. this is NOT the first one.

as far as the reputation post? trust me, i have been berated again and again for unorthodox plays. thats fine, ill defend them. if i ever make a play i like, i will back it up to the bitter end until slapped in the face by an obvious better play. until i reach that point, i will simply refuse to back down. tragic flaw, sure, but i dont dislike it at all.

also, as far as respect goes, i feel like i have at least somewhat earned it. i dont berate noobs too often unless they blatently attack me. i dont give bad advice. i dont make useless threads. i didnt get whatever 'respect' i have by offering bad advice, wasting peoples time, and simply talking crap i cant back up.

anyone who thinks i have an inflated ego? think again. maybe 3 months ago i had an inflated ego. i was brought back to earth after a couple vegas trips. thats all it took. i know where i stand in the poker world, and especially in the sng world. im a good, winning player, that does best massive multitabling medium stakes sngs.

again, let me say that the entire reason of creating this thread was to generate arguments. i revel in it. it puts me in the best frame of mind for thinking i can possibly be in. it causes my brain to perform at a much higher level than normal, for some sick reason. if u disagree with me, fine, i dont mind at all, even my so called 'friends' that i 'dont argue' with challenge me constantly. thats what makes us all better. i dont go off on them on the forum mainly because i talk to all of them on aim about things like this anyway.

ok, i dont really know what else to say, ill go read more posts and try to respond. thanks for makin it fun so far, i got plenty of juice left [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] holla

[lastchance]

I said it.

This raise and the mentality behind it is completely wrong. I really don't think that minbetter couldn't have an ace here, or flush draw, and caller could have anything. AJ is good at least 56% of the time here. You can call for bluffing value, or raise it. Both are more +EV then folding TPGK on a board like that.

[vinyard]

[ QUOTE ]
ok, first off, about the check raise.. do you REALLY think i dont HONESTLY understand the reasoning and benefits of making a check raise to around 75 here? i mean seriously people. do you honestly think i havent taken apart this hand already, and looked at every option provided?

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If you did and dismissed it you are at least a coinflip to be wrong. IMHO, you play in this hand from round to round is inconsistent.

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i posted this hand to START controversy. thats why i make threads like this. this is NOT the first one.

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yep. And those of us that are still learning the game appreciate your effort. And I like starting controversy as a reason to originate a thread. It sure seems, however, that you are not responding reasonably to the criticism that was offered to you as a consequence of the controvery you *chose* to create.

Look, you're clearly a brillaint poker player but, well, your interpersonal skills suck ass. At least in writing. Either you wanted a flame war or you didn't. If its the latter you should have responded to the criticisms (which you knew would come) as an adult. If its the former, none of this should bother you.

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[raptor517]

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If its the latter you should have responded to the criticisms (which you knew would come) as an adult. If its the former, none of this should bother you.

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lol, im not exactly a full blown adult yet, still kid like tendencies and such..

also, as for being bothered? im not bothered really, just irritated my view isnt even getting ANY agreements. usually more than one person sees some merit in it.. maybe i actually am bothered.. who knows.

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IMHO, you play in this hand from round to round is inconsistent.

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EXCELLENT! yer absolutely right [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] i do play inconsistently. if i didnt, i wouldnt be that much of a player because people would know exactly where i was at every time. good to mix it up. holla

[vinyard]

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also, as for being bothered? im not bothered really, just irritated my view isnt even getting ANY agreements. usually more than one person sees some merit in it.. maybe i actually am bothered.. who knows.

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Actually, it's clear that you are bothered. Nothing wrong with that.

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i do play inconsistently. if i didnt, i wouldnt be that much of a player because people would know exactly where i was at every time. good to mix it up. holla

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Thanks, Doyle. Holla! I didn't do you the disservice of mocking your adolescent complaints against expected criticism of your post. Treat other posters with respect especially when they can help you learn something. That is, simply, the attitude I have always taken with your posts (which have been incredibly helpful) and you should do the same when you are swimming too far from shore.

[45suited]

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also, as for being bothered? im not bothered really, just irritated my view isnt even getting ANY agreements.

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Way back on page two, I wrote:

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I like the concept alot. In this case, the turn was about as safe as you could hope for, so I can see calling. But I really agree with the strategy of letting go of marginal holdings early even though I'm sure that I'm letting go of some winners.

The bubble play in SNGs is so poor and every chip lost early erodes FE. Plus, I look at it like every chip lost now is really like losing 2 chips when I double up later.

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Where's the love, Raptor?

The one thing that I do agree with Raptor on is that, IMO, too many people act like there is only one way to play a hand. Another benefit of taking his approach early is that you can often see what other players are showing down and use that information later.

I am very hesitant to get too attached to a multi-way, unraised pot early in an SNG. While I think that the turn was as safe as could be, I understand Raptor's reasoning behind not wanting to call a turn bet and another probable river bet. Also, there were players yet to act behind him when he decided to fold. While he was likely passing up a +EV spot, it's not like he had some sort of monster hand.

I think people need to realize that there aren't quite as many absolutes in poker as we might think. The pure math plays are absolute (when to push from the SB). Bubble play is pretty much absolute. But in a spot like this, while Raptor may have been passing up a +EV situation, it's not like his play has no merit. People are acting like he folded a set or something, for chrissake.

[raptor517]

yer a sweetie 45. i DO remember you saying that, and i THINK i said something like 'more than one person backing me up' in that post. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] holla

[fnord_too]

Before I read the responses (or at least a couple of them, this damn thread is already three pages), I think you have to lead that flop. I lead for 45 and evaluate if there is any action. You hit a good flop here, no one has shown any interest preflop, your hand is probably good. Lead for your standard ammount (my standard amount here is 40-45) and play poker.

If this is typical of your early round play, it looks like you are just passing time hoping to hit a monster until you get to the push or fold portion of the program.

Back to the hand: what are you hoping to catch on the turn, and how do you play it if you catch it? Not leading here makes the rest of the hand pretty sketchy if you catch what you are looking for. Basically, I think it adds a lot of variance and lowers expectation. There is not a card that can come off that gives you the nuts or even a hand you should be happy getting your stack in with, so are you going into check call reasonable bet mode if you catch good?

I understand your reluctance to play a big pot OOP with a marginal hand, but leading here does not mean you will be playing a big pot. If you get a call, you probably have to fire again on the turn, say T100, if a blank comes, but most of the time the hand resolves itself on the flop or the turn.

[durron597]

I decided to shut up after my first replies to this thread and try to learn something.

I am confident that if HeelofTar folds this flop then Raptor isn't checkfolding the turn. Right? (right?).

What's interesting to me, though, is that Raptor says that AK or AQ is *not* what he's afraid of. Does that mean you're playing AK the same way? Or I suppose you raise AK preflop into a limped pot out of the blinds...

Against multiple opponents out of position in a game where you're likely to be in a higher EV situation soon I don't mind the play. I think everyone is right - Raptor likely has the best hand BUT he loses a lot of chips when he doesn't and doesn't win many when he does so why continue?

At first I didn't agree with raptor but after reading this whole thread I think his logic makes the most sense. Don't push your small edges when you think you'll have a bigger edge later.

[Maulik]

Ignoring the dialogue about raptor being caustic and brash there are good arguments for playing this hand differently. Additionally, this is a message board ignore anyone's ego or sarcasm... More discussion about the risk to reward ratio of this hand would be very valuable.

Still trying to figure out how to play this hand [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]