15/30 depedant

1800GAMBLER · #1 08-05-2004, 12:52 PM

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold,

Flop: (5 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets

Someone check my thinking here please.

Firstly, i'm starting to think that flop raise sucks more and more each day since the new fashion on party seems to be betting with intentions of 3 betting.

The important part for me is the turn. At the moment i still think my hand has showdown value the 3 bet for me really makes me think it's more likely he has a draw than a made hand, party love to jam 'em. Although Kj Kt are still a possibility.

So my options are either call down or raise the turn and check behind on the river the majority of the time.

Raising: I get more money in while he's drawing and he gets none in the times he makes his hand. Yet the times he 3 bets i'm commited thanks to my gutshot so i'm forced to call that bet thanks to my now seemingly stupid turn raise.

Or does everyone fold?

stoxtrader · #2 08-05-2004, 01:43 PM

I call the flop and fold the turn unimproved.

turnipmonster · #3 08-05-2004, 01:56 PM

I think everything about this hand confuses me. is everyone that plays the 15/30 insane or am I just stupid?

why would you call/raise on the flop with a gutshot in a 5SB pot? why would he then 3 bet the flop and fire on the turn with a draw? why would you then call him down with really just ace high and maybe 3 outs?

I am not trying to be smug, I am seriously confused on just about every street except preflop. can you explain your thinking?
--turnipmonster

Knockwurst · #4 08-05-2004, 01:56 PM

Good problem. At first, I liked your flop play to take control and maybe get him to check and fold the turn. But he's not checking and folding the turn after three betting the flop is he? In fact he's betting out the turn, and now he's got you jammed up. He's either got a strong draw or K (maybe a QT?). Do you fold, call or raise? Like you point out if you knew he was on a draw, you'd raise him. If you knew he had a K, you'd call him. Also, two of your outs are possibly tainted (As and Js), so your seven outs are down to five outs, and we don't know if the two other aces are even good. I still think you made the right play on the flop, it just looks like you ran into a real hand, whether it's a draw or made hand is a tough call. So raise, call or fold the turn. I think all three are close (is that possible?)

I think a call and fold to a river bet or call and check behind if you miss.

But what do you do if a As or Js hits and he bets out? What do you do if he checks?

What do you do if an A hits and he bets out?

Man, this is complicated. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Garland · #5 08-05-2004, 02:13 PM

Folding the flop wouldn't be a terrible play.

Peeling one to get an A or J is acceptable, with the intents of folding the turn unimproved.

I think raising the flop in this spot is too aggressive here if you don't believe SB can fold right there. Like you said, it sucks to face a reraise and get stuck calling because you made the pot swell.

Raising the turn on that non-scare card after being 3-bet by SB on the flop is just asking for trouble.

Garland

1800GAMBLER · #6 08-05-2004, 02:14 PM

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why would you call/raise on the flop with a gutshot in a 5SB pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling this only a gutshot is far from true. If i were to avg them i'd set my outs at about 6.5 because of the strange % of the time AQ just calls then bets outs/A3.

[ QUOTE ]
why would he then 3 bet the flop and fire on the turn with a draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

That seems to be the very standard line on party, there's a hell of a lot of board in which if someone caps i'm 90% sure they have a draw.

[ QUOTE ]
why would you then call him down with really just ace high and maybe 3 outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Again 3 outs doesn't apply, yet if i was to truely average these a lot of the times i have half of the deck as my outs when he has the flush draw/straight draw.

[ QUOTE ]
At first, I liked your flop play to take control and maybe get him to check and fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm checking the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Folding the flop wouldn't be a terrible play.

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It would.

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the turn on that non-scare card after being 3-bet by SB on the flop is just asking for trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it asking for trouble? Or do you think naturally think the worst is going to happen because i just got raised on the flop?

---

Can we please move away from the flop? I like the play, i'm happy with the play, the turn is much much more important. I guess you have to be happy with the flop to consider my options on the turn though.

blockafor · #7 08-05-2004, 02:26 PM

Raising the flop is good if this guy is known to lead into every flop when its heads up and he's first to act. You should just fold on the flop.

blockafor · #8 08-05-2004, 02:34 PM

"Firstly, i'm starting to think that flop raise sucks more and more each day since the new fashion on party seems to be betting with intentions of 3 betting."

"Can we please move away from the flop? I like the play, i'm happy with the play..."

???

1800GAMBLER · #9 08-05-2004, 02:38 PM

Notice the line amounts given to each street. A clear 'yea those party players are doing this bet-3bet legit now' or just something regarding the frequency would have easily been enough for the flop. The turn is much more complex. Yet no one has taken a shot at it yet.

Again, folding the flop sucks.

Nate tha' Great · #10 08-05-2004, 03:11 PM

Thinking out loud here. Regrettably, Jay, this particular exercise in thinking out loud won't help you very much with this particular hand.

Perhaps one thing that this hand illustrates is that, in this game, when you flop a good hand and an aggressive opponent bets into you, it is better to call pretty often on the flop, and wait until the turn to raise if you have a good hand, or occasionally as a bluff. Now, in general, I've tried to really ramp up my level of aggression on the flop when I flop a big hand, the theory being that I want my opponent to fear my raises those times that I don't have something, but can plausibly represent it.

The problem is - a lot of opponents in this game don't respect my flop raises anyway. In fact they'll often bet into you on the flop *expecting* you to raise (I'll do this for one; too many players *do* autoraise too often). So perhaps a better deterrant to having opponents take shots at you is to call a lot on the flop, and raise a lot on the turn, depending on what card comes off. That is the best way, it seems, to charge opponents who are on a draw. Secondly, if you have little, but some possibility of improvement, it allows you to get away from the hand cheaply if the turn card is unfavorable. Thirdly, some opponents may begin to fear your calls, and will check it to you on the turn, providing you with a lot of free cards.

I don't know if it's right that you should wait until the turn to raise with your good hands, but I'm pretty damned certain that it won't do much for you in this game to raise the flop with unmade hands.

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold,

Flop: (5 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets

Someone check my thinking here please.

Firstly, i'm starting to think that flop raise sucks more and more each day since the new fashion on party seems to be betting with intentions of 3 betting.

The important part for me is the turn. At the moment i still think my hand has showdown value the 3 bet for me really makes me think it's more likely he has a draw than a made hand, party love to jam 'em. Although Kj Kt are still a possibility.

So my options are either call down or raise the turn and check behind on the river the majority of the time.

Raising: I get more money in while he's drawing and he gets none in the times he makes his hand. Yet the times he 3 bets i'm commited thanks to my gutshot so i'm forced to call that bet thanks to my now seemingly stupid turn raise.

Or does everyone fold?

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