Great read or suicide?

riverboatking · #1 06-20-2004, 05:48 AM

so i have been playing fairly regularly on party and for the most part have been trying to play fairly straightfoward mathamatical poker. i certainly mix it up and no one would consider me a "tight" player as i often play too many suited connectors (which are definately my weakness). however since i switched from the B&M to the online NL i haven't really found myself making any really tough reads. i think this is partly due to the craziness on party poker and the fact that it is often times difficult to put players on a thought or a hand and so i usually rely on pot odds and general impressions i have of players ie: maniac or weak-tight etc...
but tonight i made what i thought at the time to be my first really good read and i wanted to get some feedback as to what you might have done in this situation. sometimes i have trouble with giving people credit for hands online, when i play in live games i seem to be much more willing to give people credit for what they are representing however when i play online i find myself "looking people up" much more frequently.
so i guess what i am asking is what do you think of this play?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (10 handed)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 ($325.75)
UTG+2 ($710.55)
MP1 ($100)
MP2 ($98)
MP3 ($100)
CO ($117.65)
Hero ($99.75)
SB ($119.20)
BB ($96)
UTG ($83)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls $2, UTG+1 calls $2, UTG+2 calls $2, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls $2, SB completes, BB checks.

like i said before suited connectors are a major weakness of mine, and while i have gotten away from playing them out of position i still will limp in good position in multi way unraised pots.

Flop: ($12) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $11, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls $11.

should i have overbet here? i generally like to bet the pot whether i am bluffing or strong so as not to give away information.

Turn: ($34) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 bets $40, Hero raises to $86.75 (All-In), UTG+2 calls $46.75.

after thinking about this until my time bank was at 1 i decided there was no way i was losing here. i didn't have a great read on this player as i had just sat down two orbits ago however i had seen him try to bully people already twice since i sat down. however beyond that i just couldn't put his bet with any logical hand. when he initally called me on the flop i put him on a high club or maybe a set, however once he bet 40$ into me i just sensed weakness. to me if he had say the A of clubs why would he bet half my stack? if he has the K of clubs or the T of clubs would he really make that bet? i just couldn't put him on either of those hands and decided he was trying to move me off my small flush. and since this was an obvious push or fold situation...

River: ($207.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $207.50
Main Pot: $207.50, between UTG+2 and Hero.

i will post the results after i get some feedback. thanks in advance your replies really help.

Smasharoo · #2 06-20-2004, 05:57 AM

How did you react when he flipped the Ac over?

YoungPoker2 · #3 06-20-2004, 06:00 AM

First of all, you're silly for playing that hand. When I first read about your weakness for connectors, I thought you meant 78 or 87, not BIG LICK (69)!!!

Anyways, there are 7 other clubs out there, and 4 of them beat you. I'm not sure what to do here...From my experience (and I will also enjoy the help here), I would guess that the guy was on a straight draw and had a high card to the flush as well, judging by the check and call on the flop, with no raise. The big bet on the turn would lead me to believe he hit the nuts.

Michael Davis · #4 06-20-2004, 06:14 AM

The OP has a pretty straightforward limp preflop here, IMO.

I think suicide on the turn, though.

-Michael

riverboatking · #5 06-20-2004, 04:10 PM

first of all youngpoker there are seven other clubs possible but only three not four clubs beat me and it seems like no one even bothered to address my thought process which is a shame. its like you guys look at the board and then automatically put the guy on the nuts. did no one bother to analyze the way he played? no one else thought it was strange and not fitting of someone who actually had the nuts or any flush at all? it saddens me a little that everyone just seems perfectly willing to lay down a hand without thinking it through.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (10 handed)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 ($325.75)
UTG+2 ($710.55)
MP1 ($100)
MP2 ($98)
MP3 ($100)
CO ($117.65)
Hero ($99.75)
SB ($119.20)
BB ($96)
UTG ($83)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls $2, UTG+1 calls $2, UTG+2 calls $2, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls $2, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($12) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $11, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls $11.

Turn: ($34) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 bets $40, Hero raises to $86.75 (All-In), UTG+2 calls $46.75.

River: ($207.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $207.50
Main Pot: $207.50, between UTG+2 and Hero. > Pot won by Hero ($207.50).

Results in white below: 
UTG+2 shows Ks 8h (one pair, eights).
Hero shows 9c 6c (flush, queen high).
Outcome: Hero wins $207.50. 

it seemed pretty clear to me at the time that his big bet on the turn which would force me to play for my stack was not the A of clubs. if he had the nuts he would know i didn't and therefore might try to get some value rather then simply take the pot down. and if he had either the K or T of clubs why push it so hard? it just didn't make any sense. i wish some of you would have done what i did and put yourself not in my shoes but in his. if you had the A K or T of clubs would you have played it how he did...and be honest don't just say yes cuz you know i pushed.

2283 · #6 06-20-2004, 04:23 PM

your opponent must have been on something to make that call.

MrBlini · #7 06-20-2004, 05:46 PM

I agree. I think if riverboatking could encounter this exact situation ten times, he will lose his stack at least eight out of ten. I still don't like the play knowing the results, and I don't even like it against a bona fide lunatic.

YoungPoker2 · #8 06-20-2004, 06:09 PM

What I'm trying to say is that you never should've been playing that hand in the first place. There is no thought process for playing 96, suited or not, on the button, or in any position. I just don't see what kind of thought process/beat you were on betting that big on that flop, then calling the big bet on the turn. I don't think he was trying to buy the pot on the turn, because he called your outrageous bet on the flop and probably figured you for 2 pair and knew you'd call. All in all, I would never ever play this hand from my experience, and I definitely wouldn't call with a 9 high flush.

Michael Davis · #9 06-20-2004, 06:44 PM

"it seemed pretty clear to me at the time that his big bet on the turn which would force me to play for my stack was not the A of clubs. if he had the nuts he would know i didn't and therefore might try to get some value rather then simply take the pot down."

This is a statement I strongly disagree with. I frequently see players moving all-in with the nuts, and do so myself. After all, why wouldn't I if they're calling with fourth and fifth nut and the like?

-Michael

Michael Davis · #10 06-20-2004, 06:45 PM

Playing any hand on the button in an unraised pot in no limit is not even that wrong. Playing 96s here is automatic.

-Michael