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#21
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[ QUOTE ]
2) You get called by worse aces more than you'd think. Some people just can't believe that you'd push a hand as strong as AQ or AK. The most overused phrase on this forum has to be, "you'll only get called by a better hand." I call BS on that one. [/ QUOTE ] |
#22
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This is interesting. SBa nd BB can minimize button's pushing with AQ value (at +$13.81), by calling about 15% and 10% respectively. Given this calling range, Button can push to advantage with 66+,AT0+,A9s+. (This doesn't mean, of course, that there might not be better plays than pushing with some hands in that range.) Moving a bigger stack to the BB (switching the 1205 and 2210 stacks) reduces the value to +$9.26.
(Remember, these are relative to a fold -- it should be no surprise that playing with AQo produces a net gain vs a fold. Whatwe'd really like to see is a comparison of the EV between a push and a standard raise.) I've often wondered how the 10 BB rule came to be. I figured there was some sort of mathematical justification. Is that correct? Or, is it just a general reluctance to risk >x% of your stack that isn't backed up entirely by numbers? A significant part of the argument in favor of pushing withthis hand seems to be that you will be calling a re-raise all-in. There are lots of situations in the early levels where you make a standard raise with the intention of calling if someone goes all-in behind you. Yet, people would argue that the standard raise is the better value play. Can you offer some insight into the differences, or what triggers the move to all-in instead of standard raise? Is there a hand range, with the stacks, where you would make a standard raise from the button? I know that's a lot of questions, but this move (supported by EV calculations) seems to go against the general advice given in this forum. I imagine lots if us are realizing we've had a leak for a while. (How big that leak is would be up to debate, because we'd have to be able to determine the EV for a standard raise.) |
#23
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When I'm in late position, I tend to play a hand slower because I want to use my positional advantage. I will push the exact same hand from the blinds because it's hard to play high non-pair hands (AK, AQ) out of position and they tend to gain value when they can goto the river. Is this over-thinking the situation and should I play it more robotically? 2nd part question: When you say that your "results improved when I played more robotically in such situations"...what do you mean by "such situations". Is there one thing particularly about this situation that makes you push-it...your hand in particular or the stack sizes or the stack sizes in relation to the blinds? [/ QUOTE ] I basically mean all situations once the blinds get to 50-100/75-150 and I have like 15x BB or less. This case is small exception but the thing is there is zero chance Im folding to a reraise, nor do I want to encourage someone with 44 to do so. It's a tradeoff...sometimes a smaller raise will encourage a pair to play with you that otherwise wouldn't have (which you dont want) and sometimes itll encourage a weaker ace (which you do want). Other downsides are that your opponent can flat call preflop, which is not something you want to happen. |
#24
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[ QUOTE ]
This is interesting. SBa nd BB can minimize button's pushing with AQ value (at +$13.81), by calling about 15% and 10% respectively. Given this calling range, Button can push to advantage with 66+,AT0+,A9s+. (This doesn't mean, of course, that there might not be better plays than pushing with some hands in that range.) Moving a bigger stack to the BB (switching the 1205 and 2210 stacks) reduces the value to +$9.26. (Remember, these are relative to a fold -- it should be no surprise that playing with AQo produces a net gain vs a fold. Whatwe'd really like to see is a comparison of the EV between a push and a standard raise.) I've often wondered how the 10 BB rule came to be. I figured there was some sort of mathematical justification. Is that correct? Or, is it just a general reluctance to risk >x% of your stack that isn't backed up entirely by numbers? A significant part of the argument in favor of pushing withthis hand seems to be that you will be calling a re-raise all-in. There are lots of situations in the early levels where you make a standard raise with the intention of calling if someone goes all-in behind you. Yet, people would argue that the standard raise is the better value play. Can you offer some insight into the differences, or what triggers the move to all-in instead of standard raise? Is there a hand range, with the stacks, where you would make a standard raise from the button? I know that's a lot of questions, but this move (supported by EV calculations) seems to go against the general advice given in this forum. I imagine lots if us are realizing we've had a leak for a while. (How big that leak is would be up to debate, because we'd have to be able to determine the EV for a standard raise.) [/ QUOTE ] The 10x BB rule is mainly to simplify things for beginners, nothing else. Unfortunately once these beginners become non beginners, they sometimes fail to realize this. |
#25
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What are you doing with A8o with the button here?
If blinds know you will be pushing your better hands, do you have to muck it? |
#26
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I've often wondered how the 10 BB rule came to be. I figured there was some sort of mathematical justification. Is that correct? Or, is it just a general reluctance to risk >x% of your stack that isn't backed up entirely by numbers? [/ QUOTE ] The 10x BB rule is mainly to simplify things for beginners, nothing else. Unfortunately once these beginners become non beginners, they sometimes fail to realize this. [/ QUOTE ] There is a mathematical justification for it. There is a point where if you have nBB that it is mathematically incorrect to raise and then fold to a n allin reraise. I don't remember what the actual number is and I think 10BB is a slight overestimation, and I think it depends on your holding, but 10BB is a good number for a rule of thumb. Does anyone have an archive link? The Karlson-Sklansky hand rankings, although not addressing this exact problem are a look in the right general direction. |
#27
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The justification:
You have 1000 chips on the button. You raise to 300, and someone comes over the top, you are now risking 700 chips to call and win 1350 giving you 2:1 odds. There are pretty much no hands that are much worse than a 2:1 dog against any opponents range. |
#28
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The justification: You have 1000 chips on the button. You raise to 300, and someone comes over the top, you are now risking 700 chips to call and win 1350 giving you 2:1 odds. There are pretty much no hands that are much worse than a 2:1 dog against any opponents range. [/ QUOTE ] To me the part of the justification that is lost is what happens when you get flat called and whiff on the flop, which is just as important. I push in spots like the OP all the time. There's no point giving hope to someone who's got a mediocre hand by just raising. Plus, you do get called by hands that you crush, since many people can't see pushing hands that strong. |
#29
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I completely agree
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#30
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] This is interesting. SBa nd BB can minimize button's pushing with AQ value (at +$13.81), by calling about 15% and 10% respectively. Given this calling range, Button can push to advantage with 66+,AT0+,A9s+. (This doesn't mean, of course, that there might not be better plays than pushing with some hands in that range.) Moving a bigger stack to the BB (switching the 1205 and 2210 stacks) reduces the value to +$9.26. (Remember, these are relative to a fold -- it should be no surprise that playing with AQo produces a net gain vs a fold. Whatwe'd really like to see is a comparison of the EV between a push and a standard raise.) I've often wondered how the 10 BB rule came to be. I figured there was some sort of mathematical justification. Is that correct? Or, is it just a general reluctance to risk >x% of your stack that isn't backed up entirely by numbers? A significant part of the argument in favor of pushing withthis hand seems to be that you will be calling a re-raise all-in. There are lots of situations in the early levels where you make a standard raise with the intention of calling if someone goes all-in behind you. Yet, people would argue that the standard raise is the better value play. Can you offer some insight into the differences, or what triggers the move to all-in instead of standard raise? Is there a hand range, with the stacks, where you would make a standard raise from the button? I know that's a lot of questions, but this move (supported by EV calculations) seems to go against the general advice given in this forum. I imagine lots if us are realizing we've had a leak for a while. (How big that leak is would be up to debate, because we'd have to be able to determine the EV for a standard raise.) [/ QUOTE ] The 10x BB rule is mainly to simplify things for beginners, nothing else. Unfortunately once these beginners become non beginners, they sometimes fail to realize this. [/ QUOTE ] My thoughts with the actual hand would have been something along the lines of: if I get re-raised all-in, I can call; if someone flat calls, I'll be playing the hand with position. Which would have been OK with me. More than a 10x or 15x rule, what I'm really looking for is the thinking behind the action. I'd like to understand rather than follow a rule. So, what is the thinking that makes you decide to push rather than make a 2.5-3x BB raise? Is it as simple as: I have to call an all-in, so I might as well push? Or, is there something more behind it? |
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