66 hand, inspired by test

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain should have bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but then, what is gained by this bet? You are way ahead or way behind here, betting QQ on an AKK flop doesn't seem to be too bright at first glance.

Note that in the actual hand, his checking encouraged his opponent to put in 1.5 BB drawing almost dead. Granted, he got outplayed, but betting the flop doesn't stop us from getting outplayed, now does it?

JJ, TT, 99... sure, you bet because it becomes more and more likely that a free card will beat you. QQ though? I don't know. It seems like the only reason to bet is because you really want to fold and want to feel better about doing it.

I'm open to being convinced otherwise. What's your argument for betting? Are you taking advantage of a leak in your opponent's game, or do you think betting is best even against a perfect opponent?

-Eric

[W. Deranged]

Eric,

Your point is a very good one in my opinion. I really don't think there is any reason QQ has to bet here.

BUT!

If he doesn't bet, I think he really needs to do something more before he can fold. If villain bets here with QQ, and gets called or raised, then he's at least done enough to define his and his opponent's hand to fold.

If he checks, though, our hero is going to bet a ton of hands here. Checking and letting him bet doesn't tell us anything about his hand, and folding is much more dangerous.

One particular reason that checking is dangerous is that a lot of the hands a decent, 2+2-type player might consider cold-calling with here are hands that miss that flop: hands like QJs, 88, and so forth. We don't like cold-calling hands with big unsuited cards; most any hand we'd want to play with an A here (excepting maybe like AJs or AQs) we'd be three-betting. KQs and KJs might be in play, but they certainly don't make up a majority of hero's range. (Hero's range I think is like {55-99, JTs-KQs, KJs-AQs, AJs} or something like that).

So the important consideration for villain is to play his hand in a consistent way: if he's going to check the flop, he can't give up on the hand so easily.


My personally preferred way to play villain's hand would be to bet the flop, call a raise (a raise might be from a draw which will check behind the turn). On the turn I'd either bet-fold or check-call the turn and check-fold the river.

[TripleH68]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain should have bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but then, what is gained by this bet? You are way ahead or way behind here, betting QQ on an AKK flop doesn't seem to be too bright at first glance.

Note that in the actual hand, his checking encouraged his opponent to put in 1.5 BB drawing almost dead. Granted, he got outplayed, but betting the flop doesn't stop us from getting outplayed, now does it?

JJ, TT, 99... sure, you bet because it becomes more and more likely that a free card will beat you. QQ though? I don't know. It seems like the only reason to bet is because you really want to fold and want to feel better about doing it.

I'm open to being convinced otherwise. What's your argument for betting? Are you taking advantage of a leak in your opponent's game, or do you think betting is best even against a perfect opponent?

-Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, if hero(cold-caller) is ahead he's not folding. If behind he is likely deciding between folding and trying to make villain fold.

With any kind of read on the cold-caller as a decent player, the cold-call preflop is a strange play. Either he holds a monster looking to drum up action or maybe he is just suffering a brief lack of discipline??? The chances he holds AA, KK or AKs are very small given the flop, so...this leads me toward getting to showdown/not folding my QQ. (I also think it is much more likely villain holds a K than the cc'er.)

So the main reason for leading out at some point in this hand is actually for value AND not giving free cards.
<font color="green">But would I rather see villain fold than take free cards? </font>

How much does a free card hurt in this small pot? I guess we shouldn't be too scared since we only lose to running trips, a set or a str8...all rather unlikely. Edit: flush also possible.

I prefer betting the flop to keep an opponent behind from checking through.
If called checking the turn if...

1) I think my opponent will bet here on a bluff.
2) My opponent will raise the turn with an Ax.
3) My opponent will semi-bluff the turn with a draw.

Thoughts?

This hand is completely different from the test.

This hand:

Villain raises. He's a "rather tough."
Hero cold-calls.

Quiz hand:

Villain open-limps. He is a "weak-tight" player.
Hero raises.

Huge difference. Fold pre-flop.

Villian's hand is giving me a headache.

I think it actually matters if villian holds the Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and to a lesser degree Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

The reason I say this, is the only hands that can realisticly cold call preflop and that have more than two outs on the flop are QJs (maybe JT[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]).

If villian holds red queens, he should definitely c/r the flop.
Hero will bet with soo many hands that villian is ahead of, winning more when ahead.
Plus we can pretty safely fold to a 3bet knowing he is much less likely to hold a draw and knowing that if the flop checks through villian has only 2 outs MAXIMUM.

Thoughts????