$5+1: What to do with these people.

mosdef · #1 12-23-2005, 12:34 PM

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So, even though I may have the best hand pre-flop, you believe this is an incorrect call because of the fear of over cards coupled with a continuation bet?

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The fact that your hand is the best hand preflop has virtually no meaning unless you get all the money in preflop, which you don't want at this stage of the tournament. You are paying over 1/10th of your stack here preflop, and you need virtually a perfect flop to continue with the hand. The majority of the time the flop will contain at least one overcard, and your opponent(s) will bet often, whether he has hit the flop or not, and you will need to drop the hand. Furthermore, at the 5+1s you can expect more preflop callers behind you because opponents are loose as hell. Which means that almost all of the flops with an overcard will hit somebody. So you are stuck playing your TT for set value, and you can't call a big raise preflop on that basis.

#2 12-23-2005, 12:54 PM

Flop: (t280) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+2 bets t65, Hero raises to t350, Button folds, UTG+2 folds.

Final Pot: t695

As soon as I bet this much, I wanted to kinda kick myself. I think apprx. 180 would have been a good amount to raise so that he would make a mistake with a draw, grabbing at nothing with an overcard or two, or his higher pocket pair.

About the pre-flop argument. Would you agree to a call with AQo or AJo as opposed to my TT? And if so (I assume you would with the AQ, but not with the AJ), would this be done (I'm assuming you mean the lower limit SNG's) just because you hold two overcards?

45suited · #3 12-23-2005, 01:00 PM

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About the pre-flop argument. Would you agree to a call with AQo or AJo as opposed to my TT? And if so (I assume you would with the AQ, but not with the AJ), would this be done (I'm assuming you mean the lower limit SNG's) just because you hold two overcards?

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Calling with AJ would be a terrible mistake. I would not call with AQ either. Of the three hands (AJ, AQ, TT), TT would be the 'best' one to call with, although I would not do it here.

#4 12-23-2005, 01:05 PM

So then, the only time that you would call this guy's 6BB raise is when you have JJ+ and AK? To clarify your (and it seems the majority of the repliers) stance.

(PS .. thank you everyone for commenting)

#5 12-23-2005, 01:07 PM

Would it be logical to state that if these kind of raises become habitual for this gentleman throughout the tournament, I can then widen my range of calling hands so that TT would be included?

Pokey · #6 12-23-2005, 01:21 PM

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Would it be logical to state that if these kind of raises become habitual for this gentleman throughout the tournament, I can then widen my range of calling hands so that TT would be included?

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To see why calling with TT is problematic, imagine the flop had instead come:

6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

and UTG+2 had bet t65. Now what do you do? The pot is reasonably small, you have a very deep chipstack, and UTG+2 could very well charge you an arm and a leg to prove that your hand is(n't) second-best.

Do you call the t65? Then what do you do in the 45/47ths of the time when the turn card isn't a T?

Do you make a big raise? If either of these goombahs has a K you're just nailing yourself to a cross.

Do you fold? If so, you're paying t85 to play for a set and you're definitely NOT getting the pot odds to do so.

Given that an overcard to your TT will flop 69.5% of the time, you've got to be very worried about this situation. The TT was a beautiful hand until UTG+2 put in a big raise; then it turned to ash.

Side note: limping preflop was probably your worst choice. Many people have advocated folding, and I can't fault them for that, but a big raise (BIG raise -- up to t300 or so) is another viable choice if you think UTG+2 doesn't have two overs to you or if you think he's likely to lay down his hand. The benefit of this play is twofold -- first, he'll lay down quite often and you'll pick up a quick t110, and second is that you steal his folding equity most of the time: rather than make a continuation bet, he'll be more likely to check/fold a scary flop.

Of course, if he comes over the top all-in, you've got a nasty choice to make, and you could easily have the worst of it if you call. The big-raise choice is a scary and dangerous one, which is why most people here just recommend you lay it down and move on to the next hand.

45suited · #7 12-23-2005, 01:08 PM

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So then, the only time that you would call this guy's 6BB raise is when you have JJ+ and AK? To clarify your (and it seems the majority of the repliers) stance.

(PS .. thank you everyone for commenting)

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Correct. Probably flat call with JJ / AK. QQ for me would either be a re-raise or a flat call. Obviously I'd re-raise with KK / AA. That's just me...

roundest · #8 12-23-2005, 01:08 PM

Raise. Value bet these guys to death. Always. They will call with anything.

mosdef · #9 12-23-2005, 01:29 PM

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Calling with AJ would be a terrible mistake. I would not call with AQ either. Of the three hands (AJ, AQ, TT), TT would be the 'best' one to call with, although I would not do it here.

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I would actually prefer to play AQ multiway than TT, would prefer TT heads up. So it depends on the people behind you.

Anyway, I would be folding all of these with your stack in this situation. If I had a bigger stact (~1,200) I would most often call with AQ. It still sucks if you don't hit an A or a Q, but at least you still have a healthy stack when that happens.