Open pushing in later stages

[beenben]

I think it was Rizen who posted a tournament history where he was open pushing quite a bit and was wondering aloud whether it was a good idea. It's part of his game, partly to be "lazy" and to avoid making mistakes on later streets.

I've been open pushing a bit more lately myself when my M is around 10, maybe a little bit over. the blinds are getting up there.

The dilemma is, do you want to be offensive minded, be the aggressor and give up the ability to play defense while at the same time taking away the chance that you'll be defensive when you shouldn't, or have the chance to back off if others throw strength behind you.

If your M is around 11-13, if you make a 3x raise, and a 1/2 the pot continuation bet, that's more than half of your stack. So some people argue that you should just push
all-in since you're likely to be pot-committed on the flop anyway, thatyou should want to see all five board cards and that open pushing keeps you from making a mistake of folding when doing so would make you a small stack. It also
takes away a better player's ability to outplay you on later streets, and it may get better hands to fold.

On the other hand, open-pushing removes your ability to get out of harms way. If you raise to 3x the BB, and get an all-in and a call from a big stack, you can fold those good but not premium hands (ie 99 or AJs). If you open-pushed, you've lost your ability to get out of the way. if you raise to 3x the BB and get two callers, miss the flop, you can either continuation bet, or check-fold.

So the question for debate is, when should you open-push all-in in the later stages of an MTT?

[A_PLUS]

I like the open push more than the next guy, but an M of 10-13 is way too deep for this, unless you have someone who likes to play sheriff in the BB, and you have a hand that you want to show down.

Without antes, an M of 13 is almost 20xBB. Pushing when you are that deep is rarely very profitable.

The beauty of the open push is that the preflop pot becomes such a high % of your stack that, it is worth committing to.

When we are short, the value of the open push, is from the size of the pot relative to our stack. We dont need people to always fold, and we dont always need to have the best hand. When the 1.5xBB in the pot would increase our stack by 30%, we arent that upset as long as we have '2 live cards'.

As we get deeper, our F.E. begins to increase, so if we hold our hand constant, our equity in the pot (when we are called) goes down. This is b/c we are called less often.
For example, when we have AT, UG. Pushing with 6xBB is a no brain play. Pushing with 12xBB, is a bad bad play. In the 12x example, we have enough chips that , we can usually limit the range that calls us to hands that absolutely crush us (and a few coin flips), we arent getting called by A9, or KQ with a push that large. The problem is we have to weigh two aspects of the play.

F.E.: How often are the players being a dealt a hand that will call?

Equity: What is my equity in the pot when I am called.

As your stack goes up, the second part of the equation dominates. If you get to the 20xBB level, it completely overshadows your F.E.. Winning 1.5xBB some large % of the time doesnt properly compensate us for the small % of the time we are showing down in a 41.5BB pot with 20-30% equity.

[Rizen]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it was Rizen who posted a tournament history where he was open pushing quite a bit and was wondering aloud whether it was a good idea. It's part of his game, partly to be "lazy" and to avoid making mistakes on later streets.

I've been open pushing a bit more lately myself when my M is around 10, maybe a little bit over. the blinds are getting up there.

The dilemma is, do you want to be offensive minded, be the aggressor and give up the ability to play defense while at the same time taking away the chance that you'll be defensive when you shouldn't, or have the chance to back off if others throw strength behind you.

If your M is around 11-13, if you make a 3x raise, and a 1/2 the pot continuation bet, that's more than half of your stack. So some people argue that you should just push
all-in since you're likely to be pot-committed on the flop anyway, thatyou should want to see all five board cards and that open pushing keeps you from making a mistake of folding when doing so would make you a small stack. It also
takes away a better player's ability to outplay you on later streets, and it may get better hands to fold.

On the other hand, open-pushing removes your ability to get out of harms way. If you raise to 3x the BB, and get an all-in and a call from a big stack, you can fold those good but not premium hands (ie 99 or AJs). If you open-pushed, you've lost your ability to get out of the way. if you raise to 3x the BB and get two callers, miss the flop, you can either continuation bet, or check-fold.

So the question for debate is, when should you open-push all-in in the later stages of an MTT?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I ever did a very good job of really explaining this part, but I really think the key item in whether this is a good move or not is your chances of getting called by a lesser hand. In a lot of online tournaments (especially ones like the 40k on Party or even the Party supers that sat a lot of players in) you'll get a lot looser calls, so I think it's a much better move there.

Like I've attempted to say in previous posts, I don't think this is a move you should be like 'well I have 10M, and I want to play this hand, so I'll push' move. You need to have a read on the table that if you get called, it will be by a lesser hand often enough to make the times you pick up the pot contested + the times when you are called and win clearly +EV. I'm playing tournaments now so I can't run any math, but if I had QQ and 10M with 100/200 blinds and I felt the table's calling range on my push would be 99+/AQ+ then I think a push is definitley a move you should be considering. That kind of range isn't as uncommon as you might think in some online tournaments as well.

My stance really is and always has been that if open pushing around 10M isn't part of your 'poker toolbelt', then I think you're missing out on some value. Like any other tool though, it needs to be used in the right situation in order to be effective. Don't be the guy with the junk drawer full of odd screwdrivers and wrenches that doesn't know what any of it is for and just throws it all in there. Be the guy with an organized tool chest who knows where everything is, and knows how to quickly find the right tool for the job, even if it is one that should only be used ocasionally.

-Rizen

[Rizen]

[ QUOTE ]
Without antes, an M of 13 is almost 20xBB. Pushing when you are that deep is rarely very profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with some of this. I think the discussion was around an M of 10. Now, depending on the structure (read: does the site have antes, if so how big are they at this level?) ~10M can be anywhere from 15BBs (100/200 no antes with 3000 chips) to it's worst (the 100/200 25 ante level on stars where it would be 5250 chips at a full table) 25+ BBs. I think thinking of your stack in only terms of the big blind is flawed. I also think thinking of your stack purely in terms of M is flawed. You should be thinking about the pot size in relation to your stack, the amount a standard raise will take away from your stack (in addition to what size your standard raise should be), as well as how the size of the pot post flop is going to impact your continuation and/or value bets on future streets. Using all of this information combined you can then formulat a plan on how to best play a given hand. This doesn't really just apply to ~10M either, this should be a part of your thought process at every phase of the tournament, as it can have an impact on your decisions on all streets with any stack size.

-Rizen

I've gotten into the bad spot lately of raising 3x the BB with AK in middle position with 15 BB and then continuation betting a flop of J 8 2. I bet 2/3rds of the pot and then get raised or a smooth call. In these cases a bigger stack may call me with a J10 suited or a QJ,KJ that they would not call an all in with. After throwing away chips and getting anted for 10 hands I'm forced to push with any two. It just makes more sense to me to stick in an AK or a pair like Rizen did if my M is above 10 and under 20.

Okay. Somewhat late in a large multitable tournament, say a $5. I have 12,500 in chips with the average at 11,000. There are 240 people left and they are paying 20% of the field or 340 people. Blinds are 300/600 but going up in 2 minutes (so in this case you can say they are 400/800 by the end of two hands). My M right now is 12500/600=20.8, which is a high amount. I have AKo right in the cutoff. Even though at your current rate you have an M of 20, with the blinds going to 400/800 and you putting in at least 1200 in the next four hands isn't this a case of a push?

If you raise to 1800 and then make a continuation bet of 2400 on a flop of Q 4 2 and get pushed all in you just cost yourself 4200 chips plus the minimum of 1200 within a few hands. That's 5400 chips out of the 12500.

Isn't it just smart to push or "overbet" your M of 20 because of varying factors like blinds moving up, your position on the table (close to the escalating blinds) and a hand that is the top drawing hand?

[ QUOTE ]
So the question for debate is, when should you open-push all-in in the later stages of an MTT?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO ....
- The key question is whether or not you are already in the money, and do you need a significant stack increase to either make the money or move up well into the money.
- Another is the table mentality. Have people been open pushing and only getting the blinds? Have people been getting called down?
- Another is how many players at the table, and do you really want to get called, or would you be happy with just the blinds?
- I also agree with another response that your M is too high for open pushing here. With anything less than AA, KK, QQ, I want some opponents in the hand to extract some chips from them when my hand holds up. With anything less, I want some opponents in the hand to give me enough odds to play the hand after the flop if warranted.

I generally agree with something CSC said a while back, something to the effect of "preflop all in is the most vulgar form of poker." I'm not opposed to open pushing altogether. I just think it is more situational than random.

There needs to be a reason for every bet. Random open pushing with no rhyme or reason instead of playing poker on the flop, is like running across the interstate to save 5 minutes, instead of taking 10 and using the overpass. You might save the time cutting across, but you might also run into a truck. On the other hand, walking across the overpass will also get you there, albeit a little later, but almost always safe and sound.

I agree that open pushing is sort of vulgar. But if making a decent open raise (3-5 BB) commits your stack, then you might as well push. And with an M of 10, raising 4 BB is close to committing if you're OOP and plan on making a continuation bet whether you hit or not.

I think we've all tried raising with AK, getting called, missed the flop and then had to lay it down to some guy with position that maybe had a hand or maybe outplayed us. I hate that feeling. Maybe I'm not a good enough poker player post-flop.

So I push.

[Sam T.]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay. Somewhat late in a large multitable tournament, say a $5. I have 12,500 in chips with the average at 11,000. There are 240 people left and they are paying 20% of the field or 340 people. Blinds are 300/600 but going up in 2 minutes (so in this case you can say they are 400/800 by the end of two hands). My M right now is 12500/600=20.8, which is a high amount. I have AKo right in the cutoff. Even though at your current rate you have an M of 20, with the blinds going to 400/800 and you putting in at least 1200 in the next four hands isn't this a case of a push?

If you raise to 1800 and then make a continuation bet of 2400 on a flop of Q 4 2 and get pushed all in you just cost yourself 4200 chips plus the minimum of 1200 within a few hands. That's 5400 chips out of the 12500.

Isn't it just smart to push or "overbet" your M of 20 because of varying factors like blinds moving up, your position on the table (close to the escalating blinds) and a hand that is the top drawing hand?

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I see your point, but you have to remember that just as "it's all one session", it is also all one tournament. If a certain betting pattern (raise and c-bet) is usually profitable one should not be discouraged by the cases in which it is not. The situation you describe is bad, but it is also relatively uncommon. Far more often you will:

a) raise and take down the hand right there
b) raise, miss the flop, but take down the pot with your c-bet
c) raise, hit the flop, and take town the pot with your c-bet
d) Raise, hit the flop, and stack some schmoe you have dominated.

In each of these cases you make chips, and taken together the chips you make by raising and c-betting far outnumber the chips you lose when someone check-raises you off the hand, or (more importantly) the chips you lose by blasting worse hands out of the pot pre-flop. You WANT AQ to call here.

The other problem is that if you start pushing AK in this situation, you lose your ability to play (steal with) other hands because the villains will figure out that you're pushing big hands. (Obiously you could start open pushing garbage but that's a different discussion.)

[AceofSpades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So the question for debate is, when should you open-push all-in in the later stages of an MTT?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO ....
- The key question is whether or not you are already in the money, and do you need a significant stack increase to either make the money or move up well into the money.

- Another is how many players at the table, and do you really want to get called, or would you be happy with just the blinds?

- I also agree with another response that your M is too high for open pushing here. With anything less than AA, KK, QQ, I want some opponents in the hand to extract some chips from them when my hand holds up. With anything less, I want some opponents in the hand to give me enough odds to play the hand after the flop if warranted.



[/ QUOTE ]

So with AA, KK, and QQ you're open pushing? But AK you're not?

Perhaps I'm not reading you right...