How not to Play AK? - Page 3

Easystreet · #21 12-20-2005, 11:10 AM

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Grunch.

So many hands....

Hand 1

Raise the turn. He may think you've already caught the flush and only call. If he 3-bets, call and fold with that river.

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Geez, this is the second suggestion to raise the turn. Since when do we raise on the turn when we don't have an equity edge?

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I have now changed my mind I think you are right, we should call the turn and not raise. I also think though that if hero has decided to see showdown on the turn then raising is better than calling.

I now think that calling turn and folding river is the correct play.

WalkAmongUs · #22 12-20-2005, 11:25 AM

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Grunch.

So many hands....

Hand 1

Raise the turn. He may think you've already caught the flush and only call. If he 3-bets, call and fold with that river.

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Geez, this is the second suggestion to raise the turn. Since when do we raise on the turn when we don't have an equity edge?

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I have now changed my mind I think you are right, we should call the turn and not raise. I also think though that if hero has decided to see showdown on the turn then raising is better than calling.

I now think that calling turn and folding river is the correct play.

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raising the flop and betting the turn is the easiest way to find out where you are for as little chips as possible. You risk 2 BB at most to see the hand to showdown. Unless something odd happens, you should be getting roughly 4:1 odds for seeing the hand to showdown and you should win this hand well over >20% of the time either at showdown or with your opponent folding.

Edited to say: you would obviously fold if your opponent reraises you on the flop and bets the turn. But those times he doesn't you should win over 20% of the time.

the only time this would'nt work is against an uber-tricky maniac or when you and your opponent have super-5,000 hand reads on each other and he knows you'd do this with overcards. Both of these cases are pretty rare, so you might as well raise the flop.

davelin · #23 12-20-2005, 11:40 AM

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raising the flop and betting the turn is the easiest way to find out where you are for as little chips as possible. You risk 2 BB at most to see the hand to showdown. Unless something odd happens, you should be getting roughly 4:1 odds for seeing the hand to showdown and you should win this hand well over >20% of the time either at showdown or with your opponent folding.

Edited to say: you would obviously fold if your opponent reraises you on the flop and bets the turn. But those times he doesn't you should win over 20% of the time.

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Huh?! You have a OOP capper and a leader on the flop. The times you get to see the showdown for 2BB is about never. For another 1SB you can GUARANTEE yourself a showdown and not worry about spewing 2BB just to see yourself fold on the turn.

WalkAmongUs · #24 12-20-2005, 11:55 AM

you never spew 2 BB without seeing the showdown and you'll never guarantee yourself a showdown for 1 SB unless the villain is the king of all passives.

if you raise the flop and he reraises, more likely than not, depending on your read, you can fold right there knowing your beat.

Its read dependent:
against tricky TAG line = raise the flop, if reraised, call and fold turn UI.
against solid TAG line = fold flop
against super-tricky-steal-with-anything TAG = might have to call down.
against Passive line = fold flop
against maniac = possibly call down.

in the 2/4 games i'm playing in i'd use the tricky TAG line most of the time and i'll either win it on the turn or i'll get a free showdown for 2 BB and win UI over 20% of the time.

in any other case, i don't make it to showdown, so i never "spew" 2 BB without seeing a showdown.

#25 12-20-2005, 12:05 PM

Grunch: Very briefly...

#1 Fold River (you already know that)
#2 Fine
#3 Turn bet won't protect your hand as the pot is so big. Your stuck calling to the end like you did.
#4 You HAVE to bet the turn here. You have top pair, top kick and the nut flush draw vs four opponents in a relatively small pot. You CANNOT give anyone a card cheaper than full price. Who knows, someone with a gut shot might even fold.

davelin · #26 12-20-2005, 12:06 PM

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you never spew 2 BB without seeing the showdown and you'll never guarantee yourself a showdown for 1 SB unless the villain is the king of all passives.

if you raise the flop and he reraises, more likely than not, depending on your read, you can fold right there knowing your beat.

Its read dependent:
against tricky TAG line = raise the flop, if reraised, call and fold turn UI.
against solid TAG line = fold flop
against super-tricky-steal-with-anything TAG = might have to call down.
against Passive line = fold flop
against maniac = possibly call down.

in the 2/4 games i'm playing in i'd use the tricky TAG line most of the time and i'll either win it on the turn or i'll get a free showdown for 2 BB and win UI over 20% of the time.

in any other case, i don't make it to showdown, so i never "spew" 2 BB without seeing a showdown.

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I still hate your line. It has merit against a known maniac and that's about it IMO. What are we trying to accomplish against the opponents holdings?

Something that beats us - We're drawing, playing aggresively sucks, raising the flop and folding for one more bet sucks. The only merit is a possible free card on the turn but you want to bet the turn as well.

Something we split with (AKo) - I guess your line has merit to possibly try to push someone off this hand.

Something we dominate (AQo) - You don't want to push this guy off, you want this guy to bet into you with his dominated hodling.

WalkAmongUs · #27 12-20-2005, 12:40 PM

I see some of your points and other lines may be better for this particular situation...

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If you're going to play back, I'd rather do it on the flop.

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I still agree with this. If you're not going to play back then call flop and fold to a turn bet.

On a different flop however, my lines will be very useful in correct situations.

If the flop is something like Qxx, you should be raising the flop and betting the turn sometimes due to your combined chances of folding something you split with, folding a hand that would catch one of its outs against you on the river, folding a middle or low pair (or PP) that is actually ahead, or catching one of your outs and winning.

These combined make this line much better than check-calling when you're against certain opponents on certain flops.

Yet another post of mine that doesn't really relate to the OP's specific hand...

Pedigree · #28 12-20-2005, 01:42 PM

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Hand #2

After check raising me and then capping my flop re-raise I felt it was likely I was up against either AA or KK, but not certain. So I checked behind on the turn assuming he was trying the same ploy. He checked again on the river and I checked behind again. The river is a question mark.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 caps, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (14.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (14.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

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I'd like to talk about this hand and specifically why so many are advising a river bet. Why? Thanks...

davelin · #29 12-20-2005, 01:51 PM

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Hand #2

After check raising me and then capping my flop re-raise I felt it was likely I was up against either AA or KK, but not certain. So I checked behind on the turn assuming he was trying the same ploy. He checked again on the river and I checked behind again. The river is a question mark.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 caps, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (14.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (14.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

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I'd like to talk about this hand and specifically why so many are advising a river bet. Why? Thanks...

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We got TPTK and everyone has shown weakness on turn and river.

WalkAmongUs · #30 12-20-2005, 01:56 PM

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Hand #2

After check raising me and then capping my flop re-raise I felt it was likely I was up against either AA or KK, but not certain. So I checked behind on the turn assuming he was trying the same ploy. He checked again on the river and I checked behind again. The river is a question mark.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 caps, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (14.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (14.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

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I'd like to talk about this hand and specifically why so many are advising a river bet. Why? Thanks...

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UTG+1 would have to be retarded to have a better hand than you and risk getting it checked through on both the turn AND the river (both missing big bets and letting flush draw have a free card).

Bet the river because when he checks it through on both the big streets, the odds you have a better hand than him go WAY up.