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#1
12-17-2005, 04:03 PM
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Okay, so I guess I should have bet. Bastards.
It's just that betting there is so obvious, and people seem to play back at me at 20/40 all the time when I do something obvious, that I thought a check here would be good -- saves me a couple of bets if I get checkraised or raised by the button, and I thought that that would happen at least 50% of the time.
Anyway, I checked, button bet, and much to my surprise, the 2+2'er and the BB folded, just leaving little ole me. I checkraise. Given the situation, is this the right play? It definitely looks odd, I'll give you that. 
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#2
12-17-2005, 08:55 PM
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Re: Okay, so I guess I should have bet. Bastards.
i dont really like the checkraise... looks like youre FOS and he mioght make a big play at u by calling and raising turn w/ nothing.... just call and see the turn... prob checkcall him down.
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#3
12-19-2005, 12:11 PM
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Results
[ QUOTE ]
i dont really like the checkraise... looks like youre FOS and he mioght make a big play at u by calling and raising turn w/ nothing.... just call and see the turn... prob checkcall him down. [/ QUOTE ] If I checkcall him down then I have zero chance to get him to fold a small pocket or piece, or AJ. One thing about the 20/40'ers that they don't have in common with the 10/20'ers is that they are relentless value-bettors and the little buggers just KNOW when you're calling down with A-high. Really, really tired of that. Anyway, I checkraised the flop, he called. A blank (a 7?) fell on the turn. I bet, he thought for about 21 minutes and then called. The river paired the board (a 4 I think) and I shot my last barrel. He thought for about 82 minutes and finally folded. So it worked. Whether it was a fluke, or good play, is the reason I posted here. I'm not surprised that almost everyone is telling me to follow the standard bet the flop line, or the call-down line, but in my experiencing doing what You're Supposed To Do with crap unimproved aces in these situations ta 20/40 is costing me money. So I guess I'm still lost. (Though admittedly, this flop is SO dry that betting out is probably best.) Another advantage to what I did -- when I checked on this super-dry flop, any thinking player with a tiny pocket or piece had to be worried that that looked very suspicious, and might have folded. That is, in this line it's slightly more possible that the SB/BB would fold an ISD or tiny pocket than if I had bet straight out. No? I know that my eyebrows would have shot up if the preflop raiser didn't bet when it was checked to him on a board of Q42r.
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#4
12-19-2005, 06:10 PM
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Re: Results
[ QUOTE ]
doing what You're Supposed To Do with crap unimproved aces in these situations ta 20/40 is costing me money. [/ QUOTE ] I am a prolific flop checker after raising preflop when I have 3 opponents or more and maybe that is a leak of mine, but with two opponents I virtually always bet. If I understand correctly the reason you are "supposed to" bet is that you are getting at least 6 to 1 odds and if you check they may very well take the pot away from you with a worse hand or with a turned better hand that you gave unlimited odds to on the flop. If they both fold immediately on the flop more than 1 time in 7 then your bet is profitable even if you have blank cards. Combine that with the chances that you get it heads up and make it to the showdown for 1 more big bet, and the flop bet that you feel like you are pissing away is nearly mandatory in my opinion. I often check with 3 opponents or more because the chances that either they all fold immediately to the flop bet or that one of them just calls with a worse hand seems to drop more than the extra money in the pot can compensate for. Should I usually be betting the flop with Ace high even against 3 opponents after raising preflop? Thanks, Cartman
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#5
12-19-2005, 06:25 PM
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Re: Results
[ QUOTE ]
Should I usually be betting the flop with Ace high even against 3 opponents after raising preflop? [/ QUOTE ] At 20/40, I don't think so. I often follow the same line that you do Cartman. The OP summed up my feelings at 20/40 with this line: [ QUOTE ] I'm not surprised that almost everyone is telling me to follow the standard bet the flop line, or the call-down line, but in my experiencing doing what You're Supposed To Do with crap unimproved aces in these situations at 20/40 is costing me money. [/ QUOTE ] My one concern here, and this is something I feel I personally need to work on, is checking a slightly higher percentage of made hands on the flop to account for this, as I fire at this pot at lower limits. However, if one adds this check into their reportoire without some sort of compensation, then a flop check means with utmost certainty "hey guys I missed" every time, and these 20/40 bastards will exploit the crap out of this...
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#6
12-20-2005, 01:08 PM
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Re: Results
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Should I usually be betting the flop with Ace high even against 3 opponents after raising preflop? [/ QUOTE ] At 20/40, I don't think so. I often follow the same line that you do Cartman. The OP summed up my feelings at 20/40 with this line: [ QUOTE ] I'm not surprised that almost everyone is telling me to follow the standard bet the flop line, or the call-down line, but in my experiencing doing what You're Supposed To Do with crap unimproved aces in these situations at 20/40 is costing me money. [/ QUOTE ] My one concern here, and this is something I feel I personally need to work on, is checking a slightly higher percentage of made hands on the flop to account for this, as I fire at this pot at lower limits. However, if one adds this check into their reportoire without some sort of compensation, then a flop check means with utmost certainty "hey guys I missed" every time, and these 20/40 bastards will exploit the crap out of this... [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, they exploit the crap out of everything, don't they? I dunno about the flop checkraise but I really don't think the flop check was that bad. Yes, it was an insanely dry board -- so much so that if I had followed the standard line I wouldn't be surprised if I had to combat someone bluff-raising me. I think this line took the initiative back once I had reason to believe I was safe, and I'm surprised nobody is seeing that possible benefit.
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#7
12-19-2005, 06:19 PM
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Re: Results
i am nearly positive u had the best hand.
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#8
12-17-2005, 11:02 PM
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Re: Okay, so I guess I should have bet. Bastards.
[ QUOTE ]
It's just that betting there is so obvious, and people seem to play back at me at 20/40 all the time when I do something obvious [/ QUOTE ] Sounds like you need to clear your head. They play back at you because you haven't narrowed your range! (I'm sure you know this). Putting 2 big bets in with 25% equity in a ~8 big bet pot isn't the end of the world. You could try folding your ATo faceup preflop next time. That oughta take'em by surprise. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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