JTs--play along

[brettbrettr]

Alright, I'll just get to the point:

Assuming neither player has a queen, how many outs do we have here? How much do we discount the nines, tens and jacks considering the heart draw?

Also bear in mind that one ten is dead.

[silkyslim]

I would count 3x 9's, and our J's and T's as 2 outs. Why wouldnt UTG have a Q though? anyway, since we have odds to continue, I like to raise for a free card and maybe fold the blinds for some cleaner outs. for those advocating calling, can you list the ways this is better than raising?

[brettbrettr]

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Why wouldnt UTG have a Q though?

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He could easily have a Q. He could easily have a ton of hands though and his bet means precisely nothing to me.

[silkyslim]

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Why wouldnt UTG have a Q though?

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He could easily have a Q. He could easily have a ton of hands though and his bet means precisely nothing to me.

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so in a pot this big you cant do the "fit or fold" thing. We want to think of ways of winning it so we cant assume UTG's bet is teh nuts (TP) like we could if the pot was tiny.

[brettbrettr]

I never considered folding. That wasn't a consideration at all.

[silkyslim]

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I never considered folding. That wasn't a consideration at all.

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lol i know, what i meant was normally with an over on the board I dont count my pair outs at all. but here we are. is it because the pot is big or what?

[brettbrettr]

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lol i know, what i meant was normally with an over on the board I dont count my pair outs at all. but here we are. is it because the pot is big or what?

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Oh. Given my reads, I felt pretty confident that niehter play has a queen here a good % of the time. MP has a queen here almost nevver. UTG is a bit harder to read because he's laggy pre-flop and doesn't slow down unless someone pops him. So, assuming the flop missed him as much as flops miss post people, I figured my jacks and tens, while dirty, might be good.