Flush Draw Check, Bet, or Check/ Raise - Page 3

#1 12-03-2005, 10:26 PM

My concern with the CR is MP1 folds and MP3 makes it 3 bets. In this case, I think we may be getting the worst of it, but it's 1 small bet so it's probably worth it.

Shillx · #2 12-04-2005, 02:16 AM

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My concern with the CR is MP1 folds and MP3 makes it 3 bets. In this case, I think we may be getting the worst of it, but it's 1 small bet so it's probably worth it.

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This post really isn't of concern at low limits, it is just something that you will begin to need as you move up. It is also good when you are playing against people who know what is going on.

This hand is actually really interesting from a Game Theory perspective (I've been teaching myself NL SNG GT for the last few days...not very thrilling [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

Your comment shouldn't be a concern. Having to put in 3-bets with a flush draw is not a probem at all with the equity we have (maybe 40% on average). Thinking about the hand and figuring out why CRing is better then betting is though. Look at why we shouldn't bet here (actually I would bet under one condition)...

1) What other hands are we going to bet? Any pair is going to check/raise this flop. We aren't going to bet/call with something like 2-pair or a set. We can only have a draw when we decided to bet/call the flop. Of course we can bet/3bet the flop, but I don't think that anyone had that in mind when they said "bet".

2) Say we bet and get called. Now what do we do when we miss on 4th street? Do we check/call and give our hand away for the 2nd straight street? Do we bet again and hope to not get raised? It doesn't really put us in a fun spot. The best play would probably be to check/raise the turn if we just get called, and that is what I would do if I get called by the PFR.

3) We will be check/raising the flop with all kinds of hands here. Good draws like the nut flush draw and any pair. We will be betting out with big hands like sets so we would also bet/3bet good draws there as well. We might even check/call-donk or check/call-check/raise with a variety of these hands as well. Now all the suddon we are tough to play against as many hands we are behind get into bad spots.

So here is what I would do with this hand...

- Check/raise the flop with all pairs and sometimes check/raise the flop with a draw. Pairs need protection so we have to check/raise them. It would be nice if we could bet them, but that just isn't the case here. Therefore we have to add a mixer to keep them off balance.

- Bet the flop almost always with a big hand. Intend on 3-betting. Sometimes intend to use this line with a draw.

---- If we just get called, check/raise any turn. If he called the flop with a weak hand, I don't want him to just fold to a turn bet. By checking we can hopefully get another bet out of him with A-high or whatever. We will usually have a set when we check/raise but sometimes have a draw. If he checks behind, we will sometimes gain a free card. It also isn't terrible when we have a set because he will call us on the river (and he would have folded the turn so we get another bet by checking).

- Rarely check/call-check/raise a big hand or draw. Check/call-bet both hands an even lesser % of the time.

Now do you see how tough it is to play against us?

#3 12-03-2005, 08:28 PM

At a loose table this is fine to limp; at a tight one it's a muck. At stars, I would muck without knowing otherwise, but limping is not bad.

With this big pot I am going to check raise, hoping to fold A10, AJ, and increase my chances of winning if no one has a showdownable hand.

If I am three bet or called in two places I am check calling the turn unless it improves me with an ace or a flush. If I am called in 1 place, I am betting turn and river unimproved.

Shillx · #4 12-03-2005, 10:01 PM

Betting here sucks. It gives your hand away, doesn't get value and makes it tougher to take down the pot. If you really want to win it, I would check/raise and hope to fold out the 3rd player. Then plan on folding out the PFR with a turn bet (provided he just calls the flop c/r). That seems like a pretty decent option here. Of course you could check/call and I might do that from time to time.

Brad

Edit - You could bet/3bet the flop. I was saying that betting sucks if you plan on just calling a raise.

#5 12-03-2005, 10:18 PM

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If you really want to win it, I would check/raise and hope to fold out the 3rd player. Then plan on folding out the PFR with a turn bet (provided he just calls the flop c/r). That seems like a pretty decent option here.

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I thought about this option but villian would be getting ~7:1 on the turn call even if you do fold out MP1.

#6 12-03-2005, 10:12 PM

Any strategy that involves betting this flop is wrong.

If there had been no raise preflop - Super easy bet.
If there is one or two more players inbetween you and the PFRer - Super easy bet.

Just check/call and bet the turn when you make your flush.

Catsailor · #7 12-04-2005, 02:29 PM

Grunch:
Preflop is a little thin depending on the table but I tend to limp this.
I think either c/c or c/r flop. With the pre flop raiser in last position a ck/r might fold out MP1 and buy you some outs. You could then ck/c turn ui or bet and raise if you hit your flush.